The other Intergrally suppressed sub caliber insert idea.

[Capt. Link.]

What I think would be cool is to build a gun like a M-79 grenade launcher with a large caliber integral suppressor.Then use rifled inserts for flexibility in calibers.This being a purpose built weapon the construction and "regulation" of the inserts would be simplified.

[gunny50]

What I think would be cool is to build a gun like a M-79 grenade launcher with a large caliber integral suppressor.Then use rifled inserts for flexibility in calibers.This being a purpose built weapon the construction and "regulation" of the inserts would be simplified.

Capt,

Something in the lines of this.

I produce these safety inserts for different training systems, Co2 recoil, blank training, marking rounds, etc etc.

This particular model workers well with the H&K as one can see and has a laser module in the barrel sleeve.
Steel chamber, all tube, Allu dummy rounds with rifled barrel liner.
You could make an rifled liner inside the steel chamber part to start of with.


Gunny

[Bendersquint]

If I could get an HK grenade launcher for a reasonable price I would do this in 9mm or at least 22lr

[Capt. Link.]

The idea is similar but the suppressor is built in the barrel and is not part of the rifled insert.Doing it my way I can get around destructive bore size and SBR stamps and just need to register the suppressor tube.The lower and the rifled inserts would not need any stamps.The timing and aiming of this is far simpler than most insert ideas as its purpose built instead of adapted to engineering.

[curtistactical]

I really like the sound of this and I think it could be made to work with a wide range of calibers. Please keep us updated on progress of this. And if you want to bounce some ideas off me I'm just a PM away.

[Bendersquint]

The idea is similar but the suppressor is built in the barrel and is not part of the rifled insert.Doing it my way I can get around destructive bore size and SBR stamps and just need to register the suppressor tube.The lower and the rifled inserts would not need any stamps.The timing and aiming of this is far simpler than most insert ideas as its purpose built instead of adapted to engineering.

How are you getting around the firearm aspect of the host that uses the insert? It would be classified as a rifle and therefore need a 16" barrel.

[gunny50]

The idea is similar but the suppressor is built in the barrel and is not part of the rifled insert.Doing it my way I can get around destructive bore size and SBR stamps and just need to register the suppressor tube.The lower and the rifled inserts would not need any stamps.The timing and aiming of this is far simpler than most insert ideas as its purpose built instead of adapted to engineering.

How are you getting around the firearm aspect of the host that uses the insert? It would be classified as a rifle and therefore need a 16" barrel.

Bender, is this also for a 37mm launcher?
If the barrel insert would be with interchangeable barrels / calibers? is the insert classified as a weapon or as a barrel?
I have the H&K myself, and several other 37 and 40mm systems.
A fixed 9mm / 45 ACP SD insert for the 40mm is not a bad idea.
As volume is enough I would however instal a small laser in the insert for aiming.
The insert can be timed but that way one would always be sure what one would hit.

Gunny

[T-Rex]

This is a pretty neat idea.
Armament Services International, Inc. makes 20ga, rifled inserts for the 12" and 9" M203/M79 barrels.

How are you getting around the firearm aspect of the host that uses the insert? It would be classified as a rifle and therefore need a 16" barrel.

I'm sure you don't need to be shown the definition, but:

Atf 26 U.S.C. § 5845(F)
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Destructive Device” means:
-A combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a device into a destructive device and from which a destructive device can be readily assembled.

Would this trump a rifle definition?

Also, if by "built into barrel" means integral, then I'm sure 16" is no problem.

[Bendersquint]

Bender, is this also for a 37mm launcher?
If the barrel insert would be with interchangeable barrels / calibers? is the insert classified as a weapon or as a barrel?
I have the H&K myself, and several other 37 and 40mm systems.
A fixed 9mm / 45 ACP SD insert for the 40mm is not a bad idea.
As volume is enough I would however instal a small laser in the insert for aiming.
The insert can be timed but that way one would always be sure what one would hit.

Gunny

If it fires a projectile then its a DD, even though you are using an adapter, its because the grenade launcher is firing the round and since the housing is DD sized it qualifies as a DD.

If it didn't then beehives would not make a flare launcher the DD that it is when its installed.

If the insert can fire on its own then its a weapon, if it uses the grenade launcher trigger ssytem to fire it then it is just a chambered barrel.

[Capt. Link.]

The idea is similar but the suppressor is built in the barrel and is not part of the rifled insert.Doing it my way I can get around destructive bore size and SBR stamps and just need to register the suppressor tube.The lower and the rifled inserts would not need any stamps.The timing and aiming of this is far simpler than most insert ideas as its purpose built instead of adapted to engineering.

How are you getting around the firearm aspect of the host that uses the insert? It would be classified as a rifle and therefore need a 16" barrel.

The barrel shroud will be over 16" long you can do that.It would be no different than any integral suppressor with a short barrel.The insert itself can't be used without the legal length housing and the lower.A rifled insert itself is not a fire arm.I am attaching a suppressor to a lower that is a firearm.No laws are being bent broken or dinged.

The use of a insert into a flare gun for other than changing flare size is a crime as you are changing it into a firearm.My idea just creates a false image of a prized weapon and allows caliber changes.

[gunny50]

Gunny

If it fires a projectile then its a DD, even though you are using an adapter, its because the grenade launcher is firing the round and since the housing is DD sized it qualifies as a DD.
If it didn't then beehives would not make a flare launcher the DD that it is when its installed.
If the insert can fire on its own then its a weapon, if it uses the grenade launcher trigger ssytem to fire it then it is just a chambered barrel.[/quote]

Bender,
I thought 37mm smoothbore was not a DD?
If that is the case, how is the weapon seen when a rifled barrel is inserted in a caliber not classified as DD size?


Gunny

[Capt. Link.]

Bender,
I thought 37mm smoothbore was not a DD?
If that is the case, how is the weapon seen when a rifled barrel is inserted in a caliber not classified as DD size?

Gunny

Gunny flare guns are exempt from DD status regardless of size.
If you were to use a rifled insert or a *faux Beehive cartridge that used rifle or pistol ammo in a flare gun you would be in violation.You can apply for a stamp that would change the status to a DD if you wish to use the inserts.

The DD law is some what complex as it dose not apply to semi fixed ammo and there are exemptions.I can own a 16.00" cannon from a battle ship but can't from a tank if the ammo is one piece.I can own a 50 caliber Boys rifle but not the 55 caliber version without a DD stamp but can have a 95 caliber rifle made by SSK without one.
Just sit back and have a dozen drinks to make any sense of it.

*Faux:

The real thing:

The 40mm flechette round known as beehive:

[Archilochus]

I'm wondering - in an integral suppressor where the barrel is drilled - is the barrel legally considered a "silencer part"? And if it is, would a matched drilled insert or liner also be then considered a silencer part?

[curtistactical]

I'm wondering - in an integral suppressor where the barrel is drilled - is the barrel legally considered a "silencer part"? And if it is, would a matched drilled insert or liner also be then considered a silencer part?

I believe you are correct because it would be a functioning part of the suppressor.

[Capt. Link.]

I'm wondering - in an integral suppressor where the barrel is drilled - is the barrel legally considered a "silencer part"? And if it is, would a matched drilled insert or liner also be then considered a silencer part?

I believe you are correct because it would be a functioning part of the suppressor.

I would disagree for multiple reasons.All threading adapters made by surefire are timed to the internals of their suppressors for reasons of function yet are not NFA items nor are others of similar design.Many precision rifles used ported barrels and the suppressors tensioned the barrels.These rifles can't be shot without the suppressor nor will the suppressor function without the special barrel yet only the suppressor is on the NFA registry.This can also be said for reflex type suppressors and the special barrel modifications to allow them to function as the gas must be dumped in the middle of the suppressor for them to work but only the suppressor needs a stamp.A recent purchase of a gun collection reveled a contraband suppressed pistol with a ported barrel.This was reported to NFA branch of BATFE with the response that the suppression tube must be destroyed but the pistol and its barrel did not.With the explanation that the barrel is a mount for the suppressor ports do not make it a suppressor part as it dose not suppress without the tube and packing's.Normally the entire weapon must be destroyed if its a contraband weapon.You can purchase a ported M-3 grease gun barrel without issue yet it is designed to work with the metal packed suppressors of the day.I have never seen any law on this but with the above examples I must disagree.
Respectfully CL.

[curtistactical]

I'm wondering - in an integral suppressor where the barrel is drilled - is the barrel legally considered a "silencer part"? And if it is, would a matched drilled insert or liner also be then considered a silencer part?

I believe you are correct because it would be a functioning part of the suppressor.

I would disagree for multiple reasons.All threading adapters made by surefire are timed to the internals of their suppressors for reasons of function yet are not NFA items nor are others of similar design.Many precision rifles used ported barrels and the suppressors tensioned the barrels.These rifles can't be shot without the suppressor nor will the suppressor function without the special barrel yet only the suppressor is on the NFA registry.This can also be said for reflex type suppressors and the special barrel modifications to allow them to function as the gas must be dumped in the middle of the suppressor for them to work but only the suppressor needs a stamp.A recent purchase of a gun collection reveled a contraband suppressed pistol with a ported barrel.This was reported to NFA branch of BATFE with the response that the suppression tube must be destroyed but the pistol and its barrel did not.With the explanation that the barrel is a mount for the suppressor ports do not make it a suppressor part as it dose not suppress without the tube and packing's.Normally the entire weapon must be destroyed if its a contraband weapon.You can purchase a ported M-3 grease gun barrel without issue yet it is designed to work with the metal packed suppressors of the day.I have never seen any law on this but with the above examples I must disagree.
Respectfully CL.

This has always been a grey area in my mind. I can see it from this side too just like having multiple brakes for brake attach suppressors is fine, the ATF just doesn't paint a clear picture on this one for me. I usually adhere to the side of caution on here because as a manufacturer I would hate giving someone bad information but I forgot who started this post so that changes things.

[Archilochus]

I'm wondering - in an integral suppressor where the barrel is drilled - is the barrel legally considered a "silencer part"? And if it is, would a matched drilled insert or liner also be then considered a silencer part?

I believe you are correct because it would be a functioning part of the suppressor.

I would disagree for multiple reasons.All threading adapters made by surefire are timed to the internals of their suppressors for reasons of function yet are not NFA items nor are others of similar design.Many precision rifles used ported barrels and the suppressors tensioned the barrels.These rifles can't be shot without the suppressor nor will the suppressor function without the special barrel yet only the suppressor is on the NFA registry.This can also be said for reflex type suppressors and the special barrel modifications to allow them to function as the gas must be dumped in the middle of the suppressor for them to work but only the suppressor needs a stamp.A recent purchase of a gun collection reveled a contraband suppressed pistol with a ported barrel.This was reported to NFA branch of BATFE with the response that the suppression tube must be destroyed but the pistol and its barrel did not.With the explanation that the barrel is a mount for the suppressor ports do not make it a suppressor part as it dose not suppress without the tube and packing's.Normally the entire weapon must be destroyed if its a contraband weapon.You can purchase a ported M-3 grease gun barrel without issue yet it is designed to work with the metal packed suppressors of the day.I have never seen any law on this but with the above examples I must disagree.
Respectfully CL.

If I understand all that right (which it always questionable ) then if I was to build an integral suppressor matched to a ported barrel, in the future I could then freely change barrels without both the new, and original, ported barrels being considered "suppressor parts"?

For instance, if I wanted to change barrel length, or replace a worn / damaged barrel.

I only ask because I've read several comments in various threads here where people claim that the ported barrel in an integral suppressor design becomes a "suppressor part" - with all the legal complications of such an item for the form1 builder.

Thanks! I really like this concept.

[montage11]

if you have a ported barrel for the suppressor...the barrel is not a part solely for use in making a silencer...it is also a barrel. So it wouldn't meet the technical definition of a "silencer" (def: a silencer, or any part SOLELY for use as in a silencer).
The barrel could be exchanged. This would be like changing the Mag light on your gun cleaning system...you can own several Mag lights and change them at will, since they are not SOLELY for use in a silencer...they are a Mag Light...BUT, drill a hole in them and they become a silencer part, since they now only have the one Purpose.

[montage11]

This seems to fall under the Supreme Court Thompson Centerfire ruling, where the SC said, that if there is 2 options available to the citizen, a legal option or an illegal option, the Govt, lacking any other evidence,
shall assume the citizen would have chosen the Legal option. This was about having a Thompson Contender rifle lower with a pistol upper laying about the house for use on a legal contender pistol. Govt called that constructive possesion
of an SBR. SC said NO, its not, unless evidence otherwise. If you have 2 AR rifle Lowers and a 16" upper and a 7" lower...you CAN'T assemble a legal pistol and can ONLY assemble an AR, so you have no govt expectation that you'd exercise the legal option,
there is no legal option.

[Archilochus]

if you have a ported barrel for the suppressor...the barrel is not a part solely for use in making a silencer...it is also a barrel. So it wouldn't meet the technical definition of a "silencer" (def: a silencer, or any part SOLELY for use as in a silencer).
The barrel could be exchanged. This would be like changing the Mag light on your gun cleaning system...you can own several Mag lights and change them at will, since they are not SOLELY for use in a silencer...they are a Mag Light...BUT, drill a hole in them and they become a silencer part, since they now only have the one Purpose.

What I was picturing was a barrel drilled along much of its length for use in an integral suppressor design (rather than just having the muzzle end ported - which is also done for non-suppressor purposes).
Like this Norrell design...
http://www.silencerresearch.com/norrell ... review.htm
The barrel is sort of useless as just a barrel, and pretty much only has application in the integral suppressor design.

[Bendersquint]

The barrel is sort of useless as just a barrel, and pretty much only has application in the integral suppressor design.

It still very useful just as a barrel, just may have side effects that you don't like but it is most definitely useful.

[Bendersquint]

If I understand all that right (which it always questionable ) then if I was to build an integral suppressor matched to a ported barrel, in the future I could then freely change barrels without both the new, and original, ported barrels being considered "suppressor parts"?

For instance, if I wanted to change barrel length, or replace a worn / damaged barrel.

I only ask because I've read several comments in various threads here where people claim that the ported barrel in an integral suppressor design becomes a "suppressor part" - with all the legal complications of such an item for the form1 builder.

Thanks! I really like this concept.

There is NO blanket statement for this topic. Its ALL about how it is designed.

[Archilochus]

There is NO blanket statement for this topic. Its ALL about how it is designed.

That does complicate things a bit