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 Post subject: Legal Loophole Question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:43 pm 
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I'm trying to wrap my head around the Shockwave /Tac-14 loophole so I don't cross any legal lines.I don't quite understand how it escapes the NFA AOW designation but I'm all ears.If I built the same thing using a rifle/pistol cartridge would it fall into this grey area.If I used a rifled 12gauge barrel would it still escape NFA law.What is the key feature that makes this compliant.I put this here because questions of legality are very common here and one of these would make a great suppressed platform.
-CL

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:52 pm 
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My understanding is that the firearms you mentioned are not classed as AOWs because their overall length is greater than 26". Note that (again, my understanding worth the paper it's printed on) existing rifles or shotguns cannot be converted. Rather, a "virgin" receiver must be built into your firearm.

Franklin Armory is working in the same vein with this: https://www.franklinarmory.com/products ... ry-xo-26-s


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Capt. Link. wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my head around the Shockwave /Tac-14 loophole so I don't cross any legal lines.I don't quite understand how it escapes the NFA AOW designation but I'm all ears.If I built the same thing using a rifle/pistol cartridge would it fall into this grey area.If I used a rifled 12gauge barrel would it still escape NFA law.What is the key feature that makes this compliant.I put this here because questions of legality are very common here and one of these would make a great suppressed platform.
-CL


Rifled bore firearms may still fall into the other firearm category. But the only time that matters at the federal level is when you put a vertical forward grip on; a rifle or other firearm >26" OAL may have one regardless of barrel length, but on a pistol it becomes AOW.

The big distinction is that you cannot go below 26" OAL with a smooth bore without tax stamp, period. And so would a rifled 12 ga, as it would become a handgun with a bore >.50 cal, making it either SBS or DD.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm 
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I understand the 26" limit for rifle and shotgun per NFA.I understand the idea of a virgin undesignated receiver.I'm a bit fuzzy on the barrel length loophole and need to find out more about rifled barrels and why this is not a DD in this configuration.This is one reason I don't like gun regulations that are not constitutional oh wait gun laws of any sort are not constitutional.
-CL

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Capt. Link. wrote:
I'm a bit fuzzy on the barrel length loophole and need to find out more about rifled barrels and why this is not a DD in this configuration


Because shotgun cartridges are exempt under sporting purpose clause; if you made a .72 caliber weapon that was not exempted as being suitable for sporting purposes, it would be a DD. In fact, certain shotguns are considered DDs, like the Street Sweeper.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Capt. Link. wrote:
... I don't like gun regulations that are not constitutional oh wait gun laws of any sort are not constitutional.
-CL

+1

I'd have to dig around and re-read a bunch of stuff to contribute to your answer, if you're not happy by Monday I'll try to help.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Not that you asked about it but since it was mentioned you can convert shotguns if they were PGO's (pistol grip only) from the factory since they are classified as "firearms"

But to the initial question As I understand it if the weapon is >26" OAL (from the most extended version of the firearm to the muzzle the braces are kinda grey some say to be safe you should measure from where you lock it in at) you can put a VG on it as it is no longer considered a "pistol" but a "firearm"

Now to further muddy the waters there are several ATF letters floating around about people using 89' Grips Since there not 90's in relation to the muzzle they skirt on the edge of the law. You see these grips on several sub 26" OAL weapons.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:53 am 
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Here is the letter from the BATFE:

http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uplo ... 3-2-17.pdf

I've read this many times and understand that this falls between NFA and the GCA tripe.It appears that if the barrel was rifled it still would be exempt under the definition of AOWs.I think this is how the Thompson Contender 45/410 was made legal and the Judge pistol etc.It appears that a standard pistol grip could be used but you would need to add length somewhere to maintain the 26" OAL.The use of a rifled bore should not change the status as the firearm was not designed to be shouldered.

I may have skills in the machine shop but reading this lawyer written mumbo jumbo gives me a major headache. I truly appreciate the more literary people here that are trying to help.

-CL

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:38 pm 
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Capt. Link. wrote:
Here is the letter from the BATFE:
...

-CL

Sorta spells it out but sorta still leaves questions.

NFA don't care about it because it is not and never was a shotgun, it's not a pistol or revolver, the AG excluded shotgun shells from the DD category and I guess they don't consider it concealable so it doesn't fit the AOW category either.

So, from the NFA viewpoint it's less of a firearm than a threaded extra wide drinking straw ... bat s--t crazy people running that place.

It's not a "shotgun" or a DD under GCA for the same reasons but if GCA didn't have a looser definition for the generic "firearm" it wouldn't even be a firearm under GCA.

The questions.

It's the concealable part that makes me scratch my head since it's concealable down a pant leg or with a big enough coat. But with a big enough coat I guess a Barret is concealable. So maybe they have some minimum dress code bar like it has to be concealable on a guy wearing flip-flops, gym shorts and a wife beater.

The >26" length matters to the NFA for a "shotgun" but this was never a "shotgun" so it's not a weapon made from a shotgun and so I don't know why Mossberg went through extra effort to make it 26.X" and not let it be shorter. Maybe they left it over 26" because of the "otherwise" in 18 USC 921 (a)(6) which seems overly cautious since it still says "made from a shotgun".

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Is it a:
Rifle---No, as it's not designed to be fired from the shoulder and doesn't have a rifled bore.
Shotgun---No. as it's not designed to be fired from the shoulder and wasn't built from a shotgun (mfr never deemed/classified/built the receiver as such)
Pistol---No, as it's designed to be fired w/ more than one hand
AOW---No as it has a smooth bore, but wasn't made from a pistol, doesn't have combo rifle/shotgun barrels and is >26".
DD---No, as it's ammunition has been declared to have a sporting purpose.

I do like the Tac14 and the new "DM" model, with detachable mag, is even cooler. Not sure that they sell the braced version w/ the mag, as I've only seen the birdshead one. I think I'd go with a 20 gauge version, braced and w/ a detachable mag. Throw a silencer on it and be gone :)

A little chop-n-paste

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:16 pm 
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This is a complex issue but I guess it boils down to the non DD status of its munition and the grey area between the NFA & GGA.I'm waiting for the 14" .950 JDJ ha..ha..ha.

I do like these firearms but give me a well made over & under built on the same premise.Might even rifle one barrel and add removable choke tubes to both barrels.
-CL

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Yep, it's weird.

The ammunition you run through it is the most solid thing that keeps it out of NFA. Does that mean if you fire something of large enough caliber through a shotgun which is not a "shotgun shell" it's automagically a DD?

That whole concealability clause is in the same boogie man vein of "intent".

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:16 pm 
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doubloon wrote:
Yep, it's weird.

The ammunition you run through it is the most solid thing that keeps it out of NFA. Does that mean if you fire something of large enough caliber through a shotgun which is not a "shotgun shell" it's automagically a DD?

That whole conceal-ability clause is in the same boogie man vein of "intent".

It certainly sounds that anything that is not a DD would pass muster.They make no designation between rifled or smooth bore and last I checked even the 2 bore is non DD.

The whole DD thing is another basket of scrambled eggs.If you read the definition it only covers fixed ammunition which raises the question is a 16" navel cannon a DD.You may not know but the shell,powder and primer are all separate or non fixed ammunition on many navel guns.The largest fixed ammo is the 3" slow fire gun found on Coast Guard cutters at least back in my day.

The intent question skates to close to morality and like any gun law should have never been enacted.

-CL

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:36 pm 
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I read where Remington is releasing a semi auto tac 13 non-nfa FIREARM pretty soon.

MSRP is $915, so in reality, it would be less expensive to just form 1 a SBS and be done with it in fairness and honesty. And you'd be able to shoulder it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:20 am 
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John A. wrote:
I read where Remington is releasing a semi auto tac 13 non-nfa FIREARM pretty soon.

MSRP is $915, so in reality, it would be less expensive to just form 1 a SBS and be done with it in fairness and honesty. And you'd be able to shoulder it.

I actually REALLY want the Remington V3 (tac13?) Firearm. It would be a great to SBS and use as a salvo12 host for duck hunting. The only thing holding me back is that it isn't threaded for chokes.

My brother made me use his V3 when we were goose hunting last week. He hates being next to me when I'm shooting my 20" barrel 870. Im quite a fan of the platform.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:42 am 
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I threaded some 18 and 20 inch barrels for winchokes a while back. A buddy of mine let me borrow his reamers. Took about 20-35 minutes a piece to do.

The Remington barrel was an old barrel, and was heavily worn. When putting a set of calipers in it, would actually have been considered a NEGATIVE choke, meaning it was actually larger diameter than a cylinder choke. So, I reamed it out to accept thread in chokes and gave it a new lease on life. And makes it a lot more versatile too. I can hunt just fine with a barrel that isn't 10 miles long.

https://i.imgur.com/5fGkw4h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0kNOeVY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iHQP00L.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/i7posUZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2ZzX5kS.jpg

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:53 am 
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fishman wrote:
I actually REALLY want the Remington V3 (tac13?) Firearm. It would be a great to SBS and use as a salvo12 host for duck hunting. The only thing holding me back is that it isn't threaded for chokes.

My brother made me use his V3 when we were goose hunting last week. He hates being next to me when I'm shooting my 20" barrel 870. Im quite a fan of the platform.

Here's exactly what you're looking for.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:34 pm 
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T-Rex wrote:
fishman wrote:
I actually REALLY want the Remington V3 (tac13?) Firearm. It would be a great to SBS and use as a salvo12 host for duck hunting. The only thing holding me back is that it isn't threaded for chokes.

My brother made me use his V3 when we were goose hunting last week. He hates being next to me when I'm shooting my 20" barrel 870. Im quite a fan of the platform.

Here's exactly what you're looking for.

Ive seen that. Exactly what I want.

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