In my younger years, I worked in a small building that designed terminal guidance systems that made very loud items become very, very accurate. I say this not to impress, but just to let you know that I didn't eat all my books. That said... I don't know anything about metalworking. Other than some shop classes I took sometime back in the last century, I'd be hard pressed to point out a collet versus a center tap, even if my life depended on it.
I come here, not to start a <3-in-1 vs 3 seperate, Brand X vs Brand Y, American-made vs any-other-country-made> Holy War. I come seeking guidance from men who've amassed more years of experience than I have left on my clock... whether by years of plying the machinist trade or the hobby-jobber who has spent many cold hours in an unheated garage learning how to turn lumps of metal into desirable objects.
I'm looking to purchase a lathe/mill/drill and I'd like to know what I should look for. I'm not looking to buy 'the last one I'll ever need', as I probably cannot afford it. I come seeking guidance. I would like to start working metal (and perhaps sometime later this year, maybe next, maybe never) attempt a Form 1 can (or five of them, word around here is that they're addictive.)
Namely, what are the features of a lathe and/or mill and/or drill that I should look for and/or what should I avoid.
I know that the intended use of a tool will have a big impact on the cost and size. Assume that I'm not looking to open a professional shop, but that I'd like to have benchtop-mounted tooling to make items I can use (Form1 cans, scope mounts, machine 10% lowers for personal use, make small engine parts, etc). I'm not looking to be the local gunsmith post-zombiepocolipse, I just want to make useful things.
To keep this on track, I'd ask that you:
1) Please defer from making comments about a particular brand/model/origin country. I know brand matters. I know warranty matters... but I'm looking for information about features/specifications, not opinion about a manufacturer nor a comparison of specific models. You've amassed years of experience on equipment, you know which is 'cheap crap'. I'll most likely ask about that later, but for now I'm looking to understand how to know when I find what I'm looking for.
2) Please avoid saying that I should just go buy WW2-era used vs. anything new. I hear you. I get it.
I don't need CNC, but please let me know if you think DRO is important. If possible, briefly explain why something is important to either have or avoid. For example, in a thread here someone mentioned finding a lathe with a Spindle Bore of at least 1.5"... but I don't know why that's important.
Lastly, I'd like to say that I recognize that I've come here asking you to just give away expertise that you've garnered over the years without offering any compensation. I can only say that I'd be grateful for any responses this thread receives.
-Sinjin
Lathe/Mill Equipment - What to Look For/What to Avoid
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SinjinSmith
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Re: Lathe/Mill Equipment - What to Look For/What to Avoid
This is a copy of a previous post but this is what I considered when shopping for a lathe:
<snip>
Not an expert - not a machinist by any stretch of the imagination - but these are the things that were on my wishlist when I was shopping.
1. 220v single phase. I'm less of an electrician than I am a machinist but even I can/did add a 220 circuit. That limits your choices a lot, but I didn't have room for a huge machine anyway.
2. 1 5/8 or larger spindle bore. Figured 90% or so of what I'd turn would be 1.5" or smaller OD. So far that's been right and anything bigger hasn't been a long enough piece of stock that I needed to worry about it.
3. Quick change gearbox. No effing around with swapping gears to change thread pitch or speed.
4. 50-60 rpm min speed. Don't know how critical that is. I thought you *had* to thread or part at those speeds. I mostly do but get away with higher speeds often.
5. Power feed and power cross feed. Not really something to look for because I think it would be hard to find a machine without those that isn't a benchtop size machine but I didn't know at the time those are mostly standard.
6. Reverse. Again pretty standard but I think you can find a lot wired for 110v or pretty old that only go forward.
7. Lots of flat surfaces. Bad habit and laziness but I didn't want something with a round top behind the spindle. I wanted a large flat area to set things there (so they can fall onto the spinning chuck and be hurled violently at me).
8. Clutch. I ended up not getting this one but wish I a had clutch. Get along fine w/o it but would be nice to have.
9. Cam lock spindle in a standard/common size. I might be calling it the wrong thing but I wanted a headstock that's positevely locked and not a threaded spindle mount.
10. Gap bed. I couldn't fit a huge machine but thinking bigger is better a gap bed would be ideal. After getting the lathe and looking at it, there's no way I'm removing that for extra swing capacity. Ever. Taking a section of the ways out and then putting them back and have everything aligned as it was seems like a fool's errand to me. So although I really thought that was something I had to have, it wouldn't influnce my decision if I were shopping for a lathe today. I might get some contrarian opinions on that one and I'll defer to those more experienced than I am.
Lots of other things to look for as far as condition and capability depending on your needs. I needed something newer and in really good condition. Don't know enough about fixing machine tools and want to spend my time making chips and not restoring a production or abused machine. I bought my lathe and mill together from the same guy and a large factor was how clean his shop was and the condition of all his tools. It was easy to tell that he took care of his things so I was comfortable buying them.
Tooling does add up but I disagree that it equals the cost of the machine tool. Maybe over time it eventually does, but the basics to get going can be had inexpensively from Enco or many other places. With a used machine there's a good chance you'll get a lot of tooling with it and should be willing to pay a little more factoring that in. If all you had was a bare machine and needed *everything* it would cost a lot up front. I paid $2k for both machines and haven't spent that much for tooling on both yet. They came with a lot and I'm sticking to cheaper stuff until I find what I use the most and feel I need higher quality. My $100 faux-loris QC toolpost works but I should have bought a better one for example. I use a rh turning tool all the time so I bought a nicer insert one and I'm happy that I did. If I had spent $100 on a LH one I'd feel that was money wasted since its something I use rarely.
</snip>
That was specifically about a lathe. For the mill I didn't have quite as long of a list but I didn't really know what I wanted either.
Mine is 110V & I like that because I didn't have to run any wiring. Can't have anything else on that circuit. Drawback is 1.5 hp & only 900 lbs of machine which is featherweight compared to something like a C-frame Bridgeport. 3-phase was definitely a no-go. I'd love to have a Bridgeport but just don't have the space & single phase 110/220 is just much simpler for someone like me.
A square or dovetail column is supposedly more rigid than a round column on the smaller knee mills or benchtop machines. Since I've never had a round column one I can't comment, but anything that increases rigidity is a good thing. That and the table size/travel are the 2 things you're going to fight the most on a smaller mill, all else being equal. 900 lbs is heavy when you're moving it but not when you're cutting. Tradeoffs = size - space - features - cost - capability. Have to find the balance that suits your situation.
An area you get fooled as a noob is looking at the table size. It *looks* big enough to do what you imagine doing on it but once you take into account the real estate needed for workholding/fixturing, the "useable" space of the table decreases considerably. And that ties back into the rigidity - since you're already handicapped, you have to have very good workholding or you're compounding your frustrations exponentially. Z travel is especially critical and that's where a lot of smaller machines come up lacking for the 'drill' part of mill/drill. By the time you account for the drill chuck, drill bit, & the work, you're not drilling anything deep.
An R8 spindle is nice for a home mill. Very common & tooling is inexpensive & abundant.
I don't have DROs. Would be nice but easy enough for a hobbyist to do work without. If you were doing something repetitive they'd really be nice. Probably get better accuracy because backlash isn't an issue - the DRO is measuring travel from a datum not reading dials with some play. And push button resetting zero is much more convenient than moving the rings on the dials. If you think .005" may as well be a quarter mile, you want DROs. If you think ± .005" is tight enough tolerance for what you're doing you'll easily get that without them even at first if you do a good job tramming the mill and indicating your workholding.
Don't have power feeds and would really like to install some one of these days. If nothing else on the X-axis. I get tired of cranking handles quickly. I don't know that I'd want a power downfeed. I'd rather move Z manually.
Speaking of Z, that's one thing I really dislike on my machine. Has a nice fine down feed, but the scale is a friggin dial on a ruler. Really hard to be precise without putting a height gage on the tool. And that's not an easy task with work and the spindle in the way. A DRO on Z would be money well spent to me.
As to your spindle bore question - imagine you have a 24" piece of round stock that's 1.5" in diameter but you are making a 2" part from that piece of stock. SO much easier to just run that whole piece thru the spindle and only leave what you need hanging out of the chuck. Then you part it off and you haven't wasted any material. And you're working right up at the headstock where you are the most rigid. If you're doing the same thing with a 1" spindle bore, you either have to cut the stock and waste some for the chuck to hold or you have to monkey around setting up steady rests to support the work and you're working down at the other end of the lathe away from the headstock. The farther to the right you move away from the headstock the more that any imperfections in your machine or setup are amplified. At least for a novice - someone who really knows their machine and what they're doing will probably have good results either way, but for the rest of us KISS rules. It's also a lot nicer to do barrel work if you can just run it through the spindle and leave just the muzzle outside the jaws. much less chance of 'uglying up' your barrel that way. You'll still end up doing lots of stuff between centers because that's what you need to do, but you won't have to do everything between centers because nothing fits through your spindle bore. But if you decide a 9x19 is perfect for you in every way except it only has a 3/4" spindle bore, don't rule it out because you'd have to go with a much larger machine to get that one feature. They make tailstock centers, steady rests, follow rests, faceplates, etc for a reason. And sure enough the week after you get your magnificent X" spindle bore machine you're going to need to turn something that's X + 1/4" anyway.
<snip>
Not an expert - not a machinist by any stretch of the imagination - but these are the things that were on my wishlist when I was shopping.
1. 220v single phase. I'm less of an electrician than I am a machinist but even I can/did add a 220 circuit. That limits your choices a lot, but I didn't have room for a huge machine anyway.
2. 1 5/8 or larger spindle bore. Figured 90% or so of what I'd turn would be 1.5" or smaller OD. So far that's been right and anything bigger hasn't been a long enough piece of stock that I needed to worry about it.
3. Quick change gearbox. No effing around with swapping gears to change thread pitch or speed.
4. 50-60 rpm min speed. Don't know how critical that is. I thought you *had* to thread or part at those speeds. I mostly do but get away with higher speeds often.
5. Power feed and power cross feed. Not really something to look for because I think it would be hard to find a machine without those that isn't a benchtop size machine but I didn't know at the time those are mostly standard.
6. Reverse. Again pretty standard but I think you can find a lot wired for 110v or pretty old that only go forward.
7. Lots of flat surfaces. Bad habit and laziness but I didn't want something with a round top behind the spindle. I wanted a large flat area to set things there (so they can fall onto the spinning chuck and be hurled violently at me).
8. Clutch. I ended up not getting this one but wish I a had clutch. Get along fine w/o it but would be nice to have.
9. Cam lock spindle in a standard/common size. I might be calling it the wrong thing but I wanted a headstock that's positevely locked and not a threaded spindle mount.
10. Gap bed. I couldn't fit a huge machine but thinking bigger is better a gap bed would be ideal. After getting the lathe and looking at it, there's no way I'm removing that for extra swing capacity. Ever. Taking a section of the ways out and then putting them back and have everything aligned as it was seems like a fool's errand to me. So although I really thought that was something I had to have, it wouldn't influnce my decision if I were shopping for a lathe today. I might get some contrarian opinions on that one and I'll defer to those more experienced than I am.
Lots of other things to look for as far as condition and capability depending on your needs. I needed something newer and in really good condition. Don't know enough about fixing machine tools and want to spend my time making chips and not restoring a production or abused machine. I bought my lathe and mill together from the same guy and a large factor was how clean his shop was and the condition of all his tools. It was easy to tell that he took care of his things so I was comfortable buying them.
Tooling does add up but I disagree that it equals the cost of the machine tool. Maybe over time it eventually does, but the basics to get going can be had inexpensively from Enco or many other places. With a used machine there's a good chance you'll get a lot of tooling with it and should be willing to pay a little more factoring that in. If all you had was a bare machine and needed *everything* it would cost a lot up front. I paid $2k for both machines and haven't spent that much for tooling on both yet. They came with a lot and I'm sticking to cheaper stuff until I find what I use the most and feel I need higher quality. My $100 faux-loris QC toolpost works but I should have bought a better one for example. I use a rh turning tool all the time so I bought a nicer insert one and I'm happy that I did. If I had spent $100 on a LH one I'd feel that was money wasted since its something I use rarely.
</snip>
That was specifically about a lathe. For the mill I didn't have quite as long of a list but I didn't really know what I wanted either.
Mine is 110V & I like that because I didn't have to run any wiring. Can't have anything else on that circuit. Drawback is 1.5 hp & only 900 lbs of machine which is featherweight compared to something like a C-frame Bridgeport. 3-phase was definitely a no-go. I'd love to have a Bridgeport but just don't have the space & single phase 110/220 is just much simpler for someone like me.
A square or dovetail column is supposedly more rigid than a round column on the smaller knee mills or benchtop machines. Since I've never had a round column one I can't comment, but anything that increases rigidity is a good thing. That and the table size/travel are the 2 things you're going to fight the most on a smaller mill, all else being equal. 900 lbs is heavy when you're moving it but not when you're cutting. Tradeoffs = size - space - features - cost - capability. Have to find the balance that suits your situation.
An area you get fooled as a noob is looking at the table size. It *looks* big enough to do what you imagine doing on it but once you take into account the real estate needed for workholding/fixturing, the "useable" space of the table decreases considerably. And that ties back into the rigidity - since you're already handicapped, you have to have very good workholding or you're compounding your frustrations exponentially. Z travel is especially critical and that's where a lot of smaller machines come up lacking for the 'drill' part of mill/drill. By the time you account for the drill chuck, drill bit, & the work, you're not drilling anything deep.
An R8 spindle is nice for a home mill. Very common & tooling is inexpensive & abundant.
I don't have DROs. Would be nice but easy enough for a hobbyist to do work without. If you were doing something repetitive they'd really be nice. Probably get better accuracy because backlash isn't an issue - the DRO is measuring travel from a datum not reading dials with some play. And push button resetting zero is much more convenient than moving the rings on the dials. If you think .005" may as well be a quarter mile, you want DROs. If you think ± .005" is tight enough tolerance for what you're doing you'll easily get that without them even at first if you do a good job tramming the mill and indicating your workholding.
Don't have power feeds and would really like to install some one of these days. If nothing else on the X-axis. I get tired of cranking handles quickly. I don't know that I'd want a power downfeed. I'd rather move Z manually.
Speaking of Z, that's one thing I really dislike on my machine. Has a nice fine down feed, but the scale is a friggin dial on a ruler. Really hard to be precise without putting a height gage on the tool. And that's not an easy task with work and the spindle in the way. A DRO on Z would be money well spent to me.
As to your spindle bore question - imagine you have a 24" piece of round stock that's 1.5" in diameter but you are making a 2" part from that piece of stock. SO much easier to just run that whole piece thru the spindle and only leave what you need hanging out of the chuck. Then you part it off and you haven't wasted any material. And you're working right up at the headstock where you are the most rigid. If you're doing the same thing with a 1" spindle bore, you either have to cut the stock and waste some for the chuck to hold or you have to monkey around setting up steady rests to support the work and you're working down at the other end of the lathe away from the headstock. The farther to the right you move away from the headstock the more that any imperfections in your machine or setup are amplified. At least for a novice - someone who really knows their machine and what they're doing will probably have good results either way, but for the rest of us KISS rules. It's also a lot nicer to do barrel work if you can just run it through the spindle and leave just the muzzle outside the jaws. much less chance of 'uglying up' your barrel that way. You'll still end up doing lots of stuff between centers because that's what you need to do, but you won't have to do everything between centers because nothing fits through your spindle bore. But if you decide a 9x19 is perfect for you in every way except it only has a 3/4" spindle bore, don't rule it out because you'd have to go with a much larger machine to get that one feature. They make tailstock centers, steady rests, follow rests, faceplates, etc for a reason. And sure enough the week after you get your magnificent X" spindle bore machine you're going to need to turn something that's X + 1/4" anyway.
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Re: Lathe/Mill Equipment - What to Look For/What to Avoid
You won't cause any "holy wars" here.
But, get the biggest that you can afford. Also remember that you will spend as much on tooling as you did on the equipment. It's amazing how many cutting devices that you can amass without trying.
Don't be afraid of 3 phase as long as it is 208/229VAC. Phase converters are very easy to connect to a 220VAC feed and your equipment.
#1 rule. If you're looking for used, and I love American iron, don't get in a hurry. Be patient and the right deal will fall into place and will likely have a lot of tooling.
My first lathe was an Atlas 12"x36". It did a good job on smaller work. A few months later, I upgraded to my 1 ton Hendey monster with an Induma 9"x42" as part of the deal. Both had a lot of fixturing and tooling. The Hendey can easily make 1/4" cuts. When I expand my garage to add a shop for the machines, I will be taking my 3 phase converter and add a large 3 phase motor to improve efficiency. I also have a variable speed drive to add to the Hendey to give more speed control.
CMV has good advice. But if you're looking for used, you can internet articles on how to buy used machines.
But, get the biggest that you can afford. Also remember that you will spend as much on tooling as you did on the equipment. It's amazing how many cutting devices that you can amass without trying.
Don't be afraid of 3 phase as long as it is 208/229VAC. Phase converters are very easy to connect to a 220VAC feed and your equipment.
#1 rule. If you're looking for used, and I love American iron, don't get in a hurry. Be patient and the right deal will fall into place and will likely have a lot of tooling.
My first lathe was an Atlas 12"x36". It did a good job on smaller work. A few months later, I upgraded to my 1 ton Hendey monster with an Induma 9"x42" as part of the deal. Both had a lot of fixturing and tooling. The Hendey can easily make 1/4" cuts. When I expand my garage to add a shop for the machines, I will be taking my 3 phase converter and add a large 3 phase motor to improve efficiency. I also have a variable speed drive to add to the Hendey to give more speed control.
CMV has good advice. But if you're looking for used, you can internet articles on how to buy used machines.
July 5th, 2016. The day that we moved from a soft tyranny to a hard tyranny.
Re: Lathe/Mill Equipment - What to Look For/What to Avoid
CMV covers most of it.
Lathes:
Spindle bore: Bigger is always better, most small lathes are woefully undersized in that respect.
Quick change gearbox: A must for any serious work. You will most likely have to change gears to switch between metric/inch and maybe from fine to coarse pitch, but that's OK.
Speed: With a foot brake or 3phase you can usually thread at 100rpm+, faster usually produce better finish.
Gap bed: Don't use money on this. If it has one, leave it alone.
Quick change tool holder: A must, something like those 40 position multifixes are just wonderful (but expensive).
Mills:
Bigger and heavier are better. This applies to most equipment but double so for mills. Those interrupted cuts causes vibrations that a heavier machine handles much better.
Spindle: A "telescoping" spindle for drilling is really useful. Drilling with a fixed head is tricky, especially with smaller drills.
DRO: You can live without it, but once you've tried it you can never go back. It's SO much better than dials.
Lathes:
Spindle bore: Bigger is always better, most small lathes are woefully undersized in that respect.
Quick change gearbox: A must for any serious work. You will most likely have to change gears to switch between metric/inch and maybe from fine to coarse pitch, but that's OK.
Speed: With a foot brake or 3phase you can usually thread at 100rpm+, faster usually produce better finish.
Gap bed: Don't use money on this. If it has one, leave it alone.
Quick change tool holder: A must, something like those 40 position multifixes are just wonderful (but expensive).
Mills:
Bigger and heavier are better. This applies to most equipment but double so for mills. Those interrupted cuts causes vibrations that a heavier machine handles much better.
Spindle: A "telescoping" spindle for drilling is really useful. Drilling with a fixed head is tricky, especially with smaller drills.
DRO: You can live without it, but once you've tried it you can never go back. It's SO much better than dials.
Re: Lathe/Mill Equipment - What to Look For/What to Avoid
Quote ---
Mills:
Bigger and heavier are better. This applies to most equipment but double so for mills. Those interrupted cuts causes vibrations that a heavier machine handles much better.
---
I agree 100%. Last week brought home a small, but useable 12x36 import lathe that came out of a local machine shop that had closed it's doors. In my area of the US, it's a machine tool desert. Most stuff is overpriced, and hard to find, so I figured that the lathe, even though I wanted something larger, would be fine for 95% of work related to gunsmithing. However, Friday I brought home a mill. I decided that a J-head Bridgeport sized machine would be the minimum necessary for the work I'd be doing (not necessarily limited to gunsmithing, as I need to cut keyways on some shafting for work), and you can find the limits of your mill's rigidity real fast taking cuts such as these. As a side note, I ended up with something slightly larger than a typical Bridgeport, and it's gonna be difficult to get my workshop layout like I want with it in there, but I don't regret the decision for a minute.
Mills:
Bigger and heavier are better. This applies to most equipment but double so for mills. Those interrupted cuts causes vibrations that a heavier machine handles much better.
---
I agree 100%. Last week brought home a small, but useable 12x36 import lathe that came out of a local machine shop that had closed it's doors. In my area of the US, it's a machine tool desert. Most stuff is overpriced, and hard to find, so I figured that the lathe, even though I wanted something larger, would be fine for 95% of work related to gunsmithing. However, Friday I brought home a mill. I decided that a J-head Bridgeport sized machine would be the minimum necessary for the work I'd be doing (not necessarily limited to gunsmithing, as I need to cut keyways on some shafting for work), and you can find the limits of your mill's rigidity real fast taking cuts such as these. As a side note, I ended up with something slightly larger than a typical Bridgeport, and it's gonna be difficult to get my workshop layout like I want with it in there, but I don't regret the decision for a minute.
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Machine Gun Matt
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57fairlane
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Re: Lathe/Mill Equipment - What to Look For/What to Avoid
Very much the case.Fulmen wrote:DRO: You can live without it, but once you've tried it you can never go back. It's SO much better than dials.
Not having a DRO is deal breaker for me (altough the retro-fit DIY kits are cheap nowadays) having used them entire time I've been out of trade school
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BeerWolf
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Re: Lathe/Mill Equipment - What to Look For/What to Avoid
As to mills, get the biggest/heaviest one you can. I have a MillRite, about 3/4 the size of a Bridgeport type, and I often have rigidity problems. I've got my eye open for a bigger one, but I also live in both a literal and machine tool desert.
My lathes are a South Bend Heavy 10 (x24") that I sometimes wish was a little longer, and an Atlas 12x48 I sometimes wish was a bit more rigid. But, together with a Atlas 618 for the ittybitty stuff, they get my jobs done.
+1 on 220 3 phase if you possibly can. I have single phase 220 in the shop with VFD's on most of the machines, and it's worth every penny. Variable speed, running something a little faster or slower than gearing normally allows, soft starts and stops, added reversing to machines that didn't have it. Motors run cooler, a biggie here in the summer, where sometimes room tempeture gets high enough to trip thermal overloads.
And DRO's? You use one, and you'll never go back. Extra wonderful if you do your own CAD.
(Edited for clarification, IE poor typing skills)
My lathes are a South Bend Heavy 10 (x24") that I sometimes wish was a little longer, and an Atlas 12x48 I sometimes wish was a bit more rigid. But, together with a Atlas 618 for the ittybitty stuff, they get my jobs done.
+1 on 220 3 phase if you possibly can. I have single phase 220 in the shop with VFD's on most of the machines, and it's worth every penny. Variable speed, running something a little faster or slower than gearing normally allows, soft starts and stops, added reversing to machines that didn't have it. Motors run cooler, a biggie here in the summer, where sometimes room tempeture gets high enough to trip thermal overloads.
And DRO's? You use one, and you'll never go back. Extra wonderful if you do your own CAD.
(Edited for clarification, IE poor typing skills)
Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you got 'til it's gone?