Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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helomech
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Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

I have recently submitted two form 1s, one for a 22LR and one for a .223 suppressor. I've been through about half of the 153 pages of topics on this site, and still haven't found what I'm looking for. (However, reading this forum has been a real eye opener and learning experience for me.) I want to build both suppressors completely out of titanium. The problem I'm having is determining tubing wall thickness. It's amazing how much test information is available for SS tubing, but finding the same data on grade 5 and/or 3Al - 2.5V titanium tubing is like finding a needle in a hay stack. I intend on the 22LR to be 1 inch diameter and 6 inches long. It will be for rifle and pistol. The 223 will be 1.5" by 8 inches long. It will be used in semi only, no FA mag dumps, on a standard barrel AR/M4. I intend on shooting full power ammo as well as SS through it. So, is there a rule of thumb for titanium VS. SS in regards to wall thickness and pressure handling capabilities? I plan on buying seamless tubing, however, turning my own tube out of solid round stock is also an option I'm considering. I'd like to keep them as light as possible, and don't mind spending the extra money to use titanium. Also, the 22LR will have threaded end caps, but I planned on having the .223 end caps professionally welded. (I'm a great farm welder, but nothing like this) Any thoughts, help, or advise is this would be greatly appreciated.
57fairlane
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by 57fairlane »

You can go really thin in titanium (grade 9 is also standard for tubing).

In .22 you could probably go .025-.030 out there in the middle, essentially thinner than you need for the major diameter of whatever thread you are using for the endcaps a la original element.

I have zero experience in a titanium tube for .223
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helomech
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

Thanks. That's about what i was thinking,,, well, guessing really. I figured that one of my bigger limiting factors would be having enough material for threads. But I hate "guessing" on something like this. I've read Mongo's 101 post, and figuring out the muzzle pressures I'll have is "fairly" straight forward math, and there's a multitude of examples on this forum to draw from, if I want to use stainless or Al. But finding out what pressures a Ti tube is capable of handling is another story. On the 22LR, I'm thinking of actually externally threading the end caps, for additional strength in those areas. Not as common, or pretty, but stout. Another question I have is how well Ti holds up as a blast baffle? I'm just not that familiar with all of its properties. I could always go with a stainless spacer and blast baffle there and eliminate that question altogether without much of a weight penalty. I plan to use K baffles, in Ti, for all the rest. On the bright side, I've got plenty of time to figure it out. My first, and last, form 4 suppressor I bought took over 2 years for the paperwork and I NEVER got a stamp back. Unfortunately, my dealer had been pulling some shady business. He finally traded me out of the silencer (took it back into stock) and gave me a Sig pistol in trade. My silencer sat in his shop safe for over two years. Needless to say, it was a little disheartening. So, I'll go this route. Hopefully the Form 1 won't follow the same path.
As a side note: That dealer is currently on his way to some Government supplied housing with bars. You just don't screw around with the ATF on this kind of stuff.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by Bendersquint »

If you turn you tube from g5 barstock you can in go thinner that with normal g9 tubing as the g5 tube will be notably stronger than the normal g9 tubing. G5 barstock turned into tubing will be very cost prohibitive indeed let alone time intensive!

That said a limiting factor will be needed thread depths for you endcaps.

You can make it look like a pipe bomb like an aac element and therfore make the tube a bit thinner in the non threaded areas.

22lr is a no brainer with ti. The 223 is another story, we use ti in our 223 cans but dont get into specifics.

I do recall a few threads in here with some safe information in regards to building a ti centerfire rifle can, cant remember what threads the discussion was in though.

What style baffles are you looking at using?
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helomech
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

I was planning on using stepped cones with spacers on the .223. Not knowing enough about Ti durability/erosion resistance, I was thinking of using 316SS for the blast chamber spacer and baffle. As for turning a tube out of a piece of solid stock, you're correct, it would be expensive. I would probably only entertain that idea for the smaller 22LR one. Even then, I'm not sure if the weight savings are going to be worth the extra time spent on getting the tube to it's absolute thinnest. The money isn't the biggest issue, I have a few resources available for Ti (aviation friends), but probably will save those favors to call in when I REALLY need them. :wink: I really appreciate the help and info. I'll keep looking on here for the posts you mentioned. Hell, I may have already read them and just misplaced the info in my head. The eyes start to glaze over after spending enough hours on this site. If anyone else out there has done one in .223/5.56 in Ti and posted it here, I sure would appreciate it if you'd guide me to it's general direction. Or if someone knows where I can get specs on Ti tubing (ei. burst pressure, yield, etc.) I'd be grateful. Most places I've found online that sell tubing doesn't list those specs for the actual Ti tubing they're selling.
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CMV
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by CMV »

http://tigermetals.net/default.asp

These guys are good for grade 9 tubing at fair prices for smaller lengths. Comes with certs.

Buy tube. Excessively wasteful (both time & money) to make from Ti bar.
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kingjamez
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by kingjamez »

Templar Tactical Firearms is making a 5.56 monocore out of 100% Ti. They have a cross shaped blast baffle followed by a flat baffle. They don't warranty anything shorter than a 16" barrel, but that sounds like what you are looking for. I don't yet know the wall thickness they use but their dimensions for the can are similar to yours at 1.5"x7.5" IIRC.

-Jim
My Form 1 Monocore build on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH37sv2ySHmB1tTivFYIF8y2CW8rmiZRi
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helomech
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

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Buy tube. Excessively wasteful (both time & money) to make from Ti bar
Yes, and thank you, that's very true. However, I have access to some grade 5 round stock and the price would be VERY right. Also, I have a schedule that allows me a good deal of time off,,, and I'm very patient. Grade 5 tubing is a little harder to come by in smaller pieces. From what research I've done, G9 is only slightly stronger than 316 stainless, but is readily available. I was hoping to make the .223 tube as thin and light as possible, along with the insides. G9 would be a considerable weight reduction, even if I went with the same thickness figures as using 316SS. I'm sure I could get even lighter with G5. That being said, I may just be chasing windmills here, and will most likely just buy the more readily available .065" G9 tubing and be done with it (so to speak), and then use the round stock for turning the baffles. I still haven't been able to find ONE seller that lists a bursting strength on any of their Ti tubing though. I find that kind of odd. Maybe there's a lot more to it than I'm aware of.
I could do the math, comparing tensile and yield of Ti vs SS, and work off of the SS tube bursting strength. But again, there may be more to it than just that, and I'm reluctant to trust my own findings in an area I'm not real familiar with.

Kingjamez --- That is exactly what I'd like to build. I was planning on cones, instead of monocore, but that's the general idea. Watched the video for it - sounded pretty nice. I suppose a monocore design eliminates the need for threading the tube, but I haven't talked the wife into letting me get a mill just yet. I seem to be having a hard time convincing her that SHE needs one. Doesn't understand why a lathe isn't "enough". Go figure. But, as I said earlier, I've just sent in my forms so I figure I've got a while to work it all out.

Once again, thank you, to everyone, for all the help given and any yet to come. Love this site.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by 57fairlane »

grade 9 is fine for .22.

Just make sure you get cold worked stress relieved if you can

But if you already got grade 5 . . . :mrgreen:
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helomech
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

Yes sir, that's the conclusion I've reached. I'll use grade 9 tubing for the 22LR, probably somewhere between .030 and .040" thick. Whatever is readily available at the time I get to that point. Thinner, if I can pull off getting a bench top mill so I could try a monocore approach. Haven't made up my mind yet on that though. Would love to get a mill to fabricate some one-off parts for an airplane I'm trying to start building, and my newest hobby of suppressor building.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by Bendersquint »

helomech wrote:Yes sir, that's the conclusion I've reached. I'll use grade 9 tubing for the 22LR, probably somewhere between .030 and .040" thick. Whatever is readily available at the time I get to that point. Thinner, if I can pull off getting a bench top mill so I could try a monocore approach. Haven't made up my mind yet on that though. Would love to get a mill to fabricate some one-off parts for an airplane I'm trying to start building, and my newest hobby of suppressor building.
Benchtop mill will not be able to cut grade5 titanium for a monocore.

You will burn alot of end ills trying though.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by Dr.K »

This whole titanium thing has intrigued me. I believe I shall make a (mostly) titanium suppressor also.

I found some grade 5 barstock, and since I was already considering a grade 9 titanium tube for an upcoming .22LR suppressor, now I'm thinking I'll just go ahead and make both endcaps out of the grade 5 and the internals out of 316L.

About the tooling necessary....would standard HSS/Cobalt be ok for drilling grade 5?
Or, should I consider getting a solid carbide drill bit?
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helomech
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

Bender, what WOULD it take to cut one then? I have fairly easy access to a large machine shop, back in the States, when I'm home. Not saying it's a route I'd take, but would like the info so I can weight my options. All of this is obviously, still in the theoretical/planning phase. Better to ask the dumb questions now, rather than after I've burned up a stack of end mills and ruined a good piece of stock (not to mention sneaking a mill in past my wife). Also, for cutting baffles out of grade 5, what's the preferred method and tooling? As I've said before, I've never worked with Ti before, so forgive my ignorance. I've heard that it's not much more difficult that turning 316SS, but I certainly can't validate that statement. Your experiences with it?
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by kingjamez »

Bendersquint wrote:
Benchtop mill will not be able to cut grade5 titanium for a monocore.

You will burn alot of end ills trying though.
My Benchtop mill does just fine with 6al-4v. You just have to go slow and get the feeds and speeds right.

-Jim
My Form 1 Monocore build on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH37sv2ySHmB1tTivFYIF8y2CW8rmiZRi
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by 57fairlane »

Dr.K wrote:About the tooling necessary....would standard HSS/Cobalt be ok for drilling grade 5?
Or, should I consider getting a solid carbide drill bit?
I wouldn't even bother with HSS in titanium . . . I would go straight to carbide with some fancy TiALN or whatever coating.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by Bendersquint »

57fairlane wrote:
Dr.K wrote:About the tooling necessary....would standard HSS/Cobalt be ok for drilling grade 5?
Or, should I consider getting a solid carbide drill bit?
I wouldn't even bother with HSS in titanium . . . I would go straight to carbide with some fancy TiALN or whatever coating.
I have had issues with using Ti type coated inserts against titanium barstock.

In my experience Titanium on titanium doesn't cut well.

HSS works but not great.

Carbide is nice to work with.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by Dr.K »

Bendersquint wrote:
57fairlane wrote:
Dr.K wrote:About the tooling necessary....would standard HSS/Cobalt be ok for drilling grade 5?
Or, should I consider getting a solid carbide drill bit?
I wouldn't even bother with HSS in titanium . . . I would go straight to carbide with some fancy TiALN or whatever coating.
I have had issues with using Ti type coated inserts against titanium barstock.

In my experience Titanium on titanium doesn't cut well.

HSS works but not great.

Carbide is nice to work with.
Thanks Bender,

You knew I wanted to buy some more tools. ha ha.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

Finally! My first form 1 came back while I was overseas. Now I can begin, in earnest. I've replaced my old, second hand and worn out 9/20 Jet with a older Southbend 10" Heavy A. It's a MUCH heavier machine, about 1300 lbs. total; nice and stiff and cuts really well. I've been spending most of my time reworking, setting up, and tightening up this old workhorse. It was pretty loose (backlash, etc.) from being with someone that didn't know anything about lathes or how to set them up and adjust them. On this "new to me" machine, I'm learning myself. I almost have it where I want it. Now, to get some titanium and an indexing carbide bit cutting set. If I figure out how to post pictures, I'll include some of my new "baby". I plan on mooching much of my design, and knowledge, from Dr. K. His titanium builds on here have inspired me and given me hope that a regular guy like me can make it happen.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by Dr.K »

helomech wrote:Finally! My first form 1 came back while I was overseas. Now I can begin, in earnest. I've replaced my old, second hand and worn out 9/20 Jet with a older Southbend 10" Heavy A. It's a MUCH heavier machine, about 1300 lbs. total; nice and stiff and cuts really well. I've been spending most of my time reworking, setting up, and tightening up this old workhorse. It was pretty loose (backlash, etc.) from being with someone that didn't know anything about lathes or how to set them up and adjust them. On this "new to me" machine, I'm learning myself. I almost have it where I want it. Now, to get some titanium and an indexing carbide bit cutting set. If I figure out how to post pictures, I'll include some of my new "baby". I plan on mooching much of my design, and knowledge, from Dr. K. His titanium builds on here have inspired me and given me hope that a regular guy like me can make it happen.
Thank you for the kind words sir. Feel free to mooch away! And congrats on your new lathe!
Kyle O.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by kingjamez »

Any updates helomech? How's it going on the suppressor?

-Jim
My Form 1 Monocore build on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH37sv2ySHmB1tTivFYIF8y2CW8rmiZRi
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by kingjamez »

Bendersquint wrote:
57fairlane wrote:
Dr.K wrote:About the tooling necessary....would standard HSS/Cobalt be ok for drilling grade 5?
Or, should I consider getting a solid carbide drill bit?
I wouldn't even bother with HSS in titanium . . . I would go straight to carbide with some fancy TiALN or whatever coating.
I have had issues with using Ti type coated inserts against titanium barstock.

In my experience Titanium on titanium doesn't cut well.

HSS works but not great.

Carbide is nice to work with.
I Realize this is old, but just in case somebody (like me a couple years ago) comes across this. In my experience AlTiN /TiAlN coatings on endmills work great on Titanium, much longer life than uncoated carbide, and of course better than HSS. The issue with TiAlN inserts is that in general it's hard to find an ultra sharp insert that is TiAlN coated. The super sharp inserts are generally meant for aluminum and are uncoated. I find these super sharp inserts work best on my little lathe when working Ti.

Anybody know of a source for TiAlN inserts that are also sharp like the aluminum specific type?


-Jim
My Form 1 Monocore build on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH37sv2ySHmB1tTivFYIF8y2CW8rmiZRi
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helomech
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

No updates yet. Spent the last couple of months working on setting up, and rebuilding, my "new" old Southbend. I've finally managed to get some pretty good accuracy out of it. I didn't have enough time to really get started on my build before I had to come back over to the "Stan" to work. Unfortunately, my company has this aggravating policy about not paying me unless I'm actually working. :| So, looks like my actual build start date won't be for another couple of months when I get back to the States. So,,,, for now, I'll just live vicariously through all of your builds here on this great forum. Let me say again though, I REALLY appreciate all the help and support I've received here. You WILL be hearing from me again, as soon as I have some pics or news to give back.
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by kingjamez »

Sounds good, look forward to seeing your progress!

Is that a '17 or '8 in your photo? Is that what your working on out there?

-Jim
My Form 1 Monocore build on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH37sv2ySHmB1tTivFYIF8y2CW8rmiZRi
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Re: Questions with 22LR and .223/5.56 titanium suppressors

Post by helomech »

Actually, that's a Marine CH-53D. I haven't worked on them since Iraq, in 2009. Now, for the last 5 years, I've been working on Sikorsky S-61N models. Basically, it's the stretched version of an H-3. They're old birds, but they do an excellent job over here in mountains/desert. Love crewing on them.
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