60 Degree cones

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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sprinter23

60 Degree cones

Post by sprinter23 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:11 pm

I'm considering a form1 can, looks like smooth cone baffles would work well for .223-.308. Are they patented by anybody? And if they are who is it? New to the forum the help is much appreciated!

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:01 pm

sprinter23 wrote:I'm considering a form1 can, looks like smooth cone baffles would work well for .223-.308. Are they patented by anybody? And if they are who is it? New to the forum the help is much appreciated!
As long as you do not other features to it beyond just the smooth cone, so no dimples or other features then you are not violating patents.

AAC owns some major patents for the 60 degree cone baffle. Tread lightly.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Shift1 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:55 pm

Great info...
"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."- Samuel Adams
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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by sprinter23 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:29 am

Thanks for the info, I dont want to infringe on anything. If I changed the cones to say 55 or 65 degrees and kept them smooth would this keep me further away from their patents? And witch way would ya go to 55 or 65 or does this make them ineffective and should I just go another route? Say K's or M's.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Fulmen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:12 am

I suspect nobody will care about a Form1-can for yourself. Nobody will gain or loose anything by this, unless you MUST have a certain design or performance and are willing to buy it if you can't make it yourself.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:32 am

sprinter23 wrote:Thanks for the info, I dont want to infringe on anything. If I changed the cones to say 55 or 65 degrees and kept them smooth would this keep me further away from their patents? And witch way would ya go to 55 or 65 or does this make them ineffective and should I just go another route? Say K's or M's.
Smooth 60's are fine.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:35 am

Fulmen wrote:I suspect nobody will care about a Form1-can for yourself. Nobody will gain or loose anything by this, unless you MUST have a certain design or performance and are willing to buy it if you can't make it yourself.
Unfortunately you suspect wrong as companies HAVE gone after individual that violate a patent. Patents protect from individual use as well not just attempts to make money from them.

Some manufacturers allow the use of their patent if you ask nicely and others absolutely will not allow it.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Fulmen » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:57 am

You're probably right that it CAN happen, but what are the odds in this case? How applicable are the cases where this has happened? I just don't see how a mfg could get any return on a trial over a Form1-case...

Besides, are you really required to do a full patent search for everything you design for yourself? If you do a complete rip-off of a product you know to be protected by patents, fine, but what if you come up with the same idea on your own?

I do respect the principle of patents, but it's not a human right. It's a legal principle meant to encourage innovation, and I don't see how a case like this can violate the intention of the law. But if I ran a real chance of a lawsuit I wouldn't do it either.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:39 am

Fulmen wrote:You're probably right that it CAN happen, but what are the odds in this case? How applicable are the cases where this has happened? I just don't see how a mfg could get any return on a trial over a Form1-case...

Besides, are you really required to do a full patent search for everything you design for yourself? If you do a complete rip-off of a product you know to be protected by patents, fine, but what if you come up with the same idea on your own?

I do respect the principle of patents, but it's not a human right. It's a legal principle meant to encourage innovation, and I don't see how a case like this can violate the intention of the law. But if I ran a real chance of a lawsuit I wouldn't do it either.
The 6 instances i am aware of never made it to trial, not many people want to take on a company......afterall most form1 builds are to save money so the individuals were given an ultimatum they chose to accept the ultimatum and moved on with their life. End result was that the patent remained protected.

What you are saying is no different than saying if you ran a chance at getting caught then you wouldnt speed but if you probably wont get caught then pedal to the metal. Either way it is still breaking the law.

Bringing up whether or not you should do a patent search i say absolutely, do your homework, besides by reading patents you will learn a phenomenal amount about the technology and can avoid violation and spark innovation. People read the boards and look at pictures, i see patents as a part of that development process just a little more thechnical read.

There are plenty of things throughtout patent history that multiple people came up with similar items and whoever patented it first got riights to it. Just because you came up wth the idea without knowing it already existed doesnt make you immune against patent law.....there is no exemption within patent law for not knowing a patent existed for something. Patents protect commercial AND personal use.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Dr.K » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:24 am

Bender brings up a fantastic point about patents, and learning.

I always think of Albert Einstein who worked in a patent office for several years before he was a physicist. Kinda makes me wonder what you could REALLY learn reading a bunch of patents :lol:
Kyle O.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:55 am

Dr.K wrote:Bender brings up a fantastic point about patents, and learning.

I always think of Albert Einstein who worked in a patent office for several years before he was a physicist. Kinda makes me wonder what you could REALLY learn reading a bunch of patents :lol:
No need to wonder what you can learn, everything is published online, just start reading. Every major innovation in suppressor technology is covered you just have to figure out where it all is.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by shadow » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:40 pm

Parker published a book with a forward by Paulson ( Firearm Suppressor Patents ) with patents in it. It ran around $50. Start there.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:01 pm

shadow wrote:Parker published a book with a forward by Paulson ( Firearm Suppressor Patents ) with patents in it. It ran around $50. Start there.
There are quite a few new patents since then and patent that for whatever reason he chose not to speak about.

Its an excellent starting place for research and belongs in any suppressor connoisseur's bookcase.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Fulmen » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:36 pm

Sure patents are an useful source of information, but am I really obligated to do that before I start making anything for myself? Maybe I tinker with a wind generator and come up with a clever fix for my unit. Should I really investigate if someone patented it before me? Every time one makes anything from his own ideas he risks violating a patent...

I'll agree that we are a borderline case since much of what is done here is adapted from someone else's design, but I have also done work that has been solely my own designs. Should I investigate every idea I come up with for possible patents conflicts before I continue experiment?That's just not possible.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:55 pm

Fulmen wrote:Sure patents are an useful source of information, but am I really obligated to do that before I start making anything for myself?

If you want to stay within the limits of the law then yes you are obligated to chack all the resources the gov makes available to you for this very purpose. As i said before patents protect against commercials AND PRIVATE USE.

Maybe I tinker with a wind generator and come up with a clever fix for my unit. Should I really investigate if someone patented it before me? Every time one makes anything from his own ideas he risks violating a patent...

Indeed you do run the risk of violating a patent, that situation is kinda what patents are there for, to prevent someone from making something that the patent holder is paying to protect and documenting intellectual properties so they are the sole source for that part/idea.

I'll agree that we are a borderline case since much of what is done here is adapted from someone else's design, but I have also done work that has been solely my own designs. Should I investigate every idea I come up with for possible patents conflicts before I continue experiment?That's just not possible.

Its entirely possible, if you don't you are CHOOSING to not research whether your idea will violate patents. All the resources are made available to anyone in the world, there is no excuse for you to not do your homework.

If I had a patent and you came up with the same idea it wouldn't matter if it were for your personal use or if you had a vision and didn't know my patent existed, it is patented and it is still a violation of the patent which is enforceable under law. It is your responsibility to ensure that you are not violating a patent, its your hide you have to protect afterall.

All said some manufacturers grant people personal permission to make a can using their baffles, others refuse to because it is patented for a reason!
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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by L1A1Rocker » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:21 pm

Fulmen wrote:Sure patents are an useful source of information, but am I really obligated to do that before I start making anything for myself? Maybe I tinker with a wind generator and come up with a clever fix for my unit. Should I really investigate if someone patented it before me? Every time one makes anything from his own ideas he risks violating a patent...
No, you are not required to research prior patented stuff in your field of tinkering.
Patent enforcement can only be applied if the violator is aware that he or she is committing patent infringement and/or continues to do so after they have been notified of such an infringement.
http://www.patentoffice.com/patent-enforcement.php


If your tinkering violates someone's patent, and they find out about it; most likely you'll get a cease and desist letter. Failure to heed that letter will then get you in hot, hot water.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:31 pm

L1A1Rocker wrote: If your tinkering violates someone's patent, and they find out about it; most likely you'll get a cease and desist letter. Failure to heed that letter will then get you in hot, hot water.
Never said you would go straight to jail, I guess I should have gone and elaborated on the process of going after someone for patent violation.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by JohnnyO » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:36 pm

I speed everyday.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:59 pm

JohnnyO wrote:I speed everyday.
Breakin the Law, Breakin the Law (in my best Judas Priest impression).

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by JohnnyO » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:20 pm

Haha... That's my ringtone!

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:48 pm

JohnnyO wrote:Haha... That's my ringtone!
Nice!

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Fulmen » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:15 am

I think L1A1 is correct here, it's up to the patent holder to protect his patents. Now going commercial without doing research is just plain stupid as you risk both a lawsuit and loss of investments, but a one-off for your own use is a different story. Again I'll admit we're walking a finer line since we often look at commercial products known to be patented for ideas and tend to publish evidence of any infringements, there's also the problem of the 200bucks invested in the product.

As I said I have respect for the law and principles of patents, but I also recognize the fact that it's intentions are to promote creativity, not stifle it.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by 57fairlane » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:25 am

Google has a patent search . . . free and easy to use and also noteworthy to see exactly who is listed on each patent.

To me, reading that junk is ridiculous. It is filled with such lawyer-ese that it is almost impossible to figure out what isn't patented. Some patents remind me exactly of a paper in high school/college where someone the night before just googled some stuff and threw everything against the wall to see what sticks. There are certain individuals that their patent contains all kinds of "history" and conjecture that has absolutely nothing to do with their silencer to (I assume) try and patent the most seemingly unrelated and small nuance in the possibility that someone will slightly modify their idea. I just look at what features have an arrow pointing to it and try to hack through the vagueness relating to each "feature". I am NOT a lawyer and one should probably be consulted before actually attempting to sell any design you've got.

If you are doing ONE form 1 can and are going to blatently ripoff an existing product that works then I take the exact opposite approach to bender (of course I don't have a patents to my name) a la vatican bureaucracy :

Don't think.
If you think, don't speak.
If you think and if you speak, don't write.
If you think and you speak and you write, don't sign your name.
If you think and you speak and you write and you sign your name, don't be surprised.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by Dr.K » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:36 pm

57fairlane wrote:
If you are doing ONE form 1 can and are going to blatently ripoff an existing product that works then I take the exact opposite approach to bender (of course I don't have a patents to my name) a la vatican bureaucracy :

Don't think.
If you think, don't speak.
If you think and if you speak, don't write.
If you think and you speak and you write, don't sign your name.
If you think and you speak and you write and you sign your name, don't be surprised.

I like your style. :wink:
Kyle O.

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Re: 60 Degree cones

Post by punkinhead » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:18 pm

57fairlane wrote: To me, reading that junk is ridiculous. It is filled with such lawyer-ese that it is almost impossible to figure out what isn't patented.
I'm amazed anyone can figure out what is being patented by reading the text. I've got 4 patents and what I submitted to the lawyer and what came out of his office aren't even remotely similar. I don't know why he even bothers sending them back to me to proofread since I can't make heads of tails of them. If I ran across one of mine in a search I'd have no idea what it was about. Even the figures are unintelligible - I submit nice, clear CAD drawings and what gets published are crude, indecipherable, hand drawn sketches that look like they were FAX'd around the world 3 times. It's a strange system.

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