First Suppressor Build

[Bendersquint]

Do you not have pictures of your own products? Presumably the reviews have pictures, links?

We haven't put any pictures online as the products aren't finalized. The only pictures out there are from reviews and even since then the exterior have changed a bit.

Sinsor on NFATALK did an in depth review when he was in town and we met at the range. I believe you have to be a member on that site to see the review though.

Here is a video of him shooting the M16/Rogue9.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sch2uO_BLY0

Specifications? I presume if you have product out for review, you would have some idea of weight, attenuation, materials etc. How do your cans preform? What are the technologies? K baffles? etc. Surely if you are to sell these you don't expect the customer on a blind date? (Are you buying dinner at least?

Yes, we have the full specs for these cans, we have changed them several times since we started and once they are solid they will be posted.

The Dagger as of this writing gives 38.8dB reduction and is weighing in at 3.6oz.

We ran the Rogue9 against the SRT and to the ear it was quieter for everyone present, as soon as we have "official" numbers they will be posted.

The Tomahawk was run against the TM Clandestine and was quieter to the ear as commented by everyone that shot it at the SilencersAreLegal shoot in Dallas, as soon as we have "official" numbers they will be posted as well.

Materials? We use alot of titanium in all of our products, all the specs will be released when the cans are available for purchase.

Technologies? We are exploring patents so we won't get into what drives our cans.

When they are ready for sale all the specs and data will be available, there will be no blind customers.

[Gunfixr]

I had Moly Resined it, as I have no anodizing setup.

You know there are manufacturers that do anodizing.....like myself. We can anodize it no problem for you so long as its all the same alloy and not a mix.

I will keep that in mind, thank you. Do you only anodize baffles, or other parts as well?
Who are you, as in what company?
I see North Carolina as a location, we are in Va.

I do have a .22 unit planned, probably aluminum.

[Gunfixr]

So, if aluminum cannot be safely used on say, a .308 suppressor, is it that it won't be safe for the baffles, the tube, the end cap, or all?

I had a plan to build a multi-use suppressor, since I did not want to either buy or build 3 of them. I was going to make a beefed up version of the pictured above stack in a can with sufficient volume for a .308, but bored for 9mm. I know some efficiency will be lost on the .308, but I went high volume to help make up for it. The idea was to make a can with an open, internally threaded rear end, and use adapters, like the Liberty Mystic.
The suppression area is 8" long, and 1.7" internal diameter. The chosen tube (originally aluminum) was 2"OD, 1.5"ID. It was to be bored to 1.7"ID back 8" from the muzzle, and the rear 1.5"ID cleaned up and threaded. The OD would be turned only to whatever thickness would be sufficient to contain the .308 pressure.
Planned uses were for a 9mm SBR, 5.56 rifle, maybe 5.56 pistol (10.5"), and .308 bolt rifle, no less than 18" barrel. Most likely a 20" barrel.
Searching for what thickness to make the tube was what landed me here. My mostly finished beefed up aluminum bafflestack is now scrapped. I did, however weigh it all, the stack, the tube (still thick), and the stock to make the rest of the parts, and came up with 20+ oz. so, it might be so thick as to not save any weight.

I did find the thread on the freeze plug suppressor. I don't know what it would weigh, but I could do it in 316SS. Would 1.75"OD with a .065" wall contain the pressure of .308 or 5.56mm safely? I am supposing that the first chamber gets the most pressure, with pressure dropping in each successive chamber. The first chamber could be lined with a second .065" wall. If I did it the same sized as I originally planned, it would be 8" long by 1.62"ID of suppression area.

[Gunfixr]

No answer to the last question.

Ok, I'll try another one, or two.
For a multi-use suppressor, with the most powerful calibers being .308 Win (bolt gun, at least 18-20" barrel), or 5.56mm NATO (with a 14" bbl, no auto), what would be the minimum tube wall thickness for a 316 outer tube? With a 1.5" OD, I can go .049", .065", .083", or ,095". I found a source for virtually all things "freeze plug", and with .065" wall, could make one of the freeze plug suppressors detailed in another thread, using stainless plugs. So, is .065" wall 316 tubing sufficiently strong for the calibers mentioned?
Will the thinner wall work if I line the blast chamber to make it thicker?
I could go 1.625" OD with a .065 wall, or even 1.750" OD with a .065 wall. Either of these will give a noticeably larger volume.
Would a stack of conical baffles benefit form this? Or is it overkill and unnecessary weight?

The second option, requiring more machine time, but making a nicer unit, would be titanium.
For the same above calibers, I can go 3AI-2.5V (Grade 9) in 1.5" OD with .054", .070", or .087" wall. There is also the option of 1.625" OD with .035, .050", .054", and .070" wall. Or, up to 1.750" OD with .035" or .054" wall.
I would get bar and make conical baffles for this one. Again, the blast chamber could be lined with a second layer if needed.

Since I only have a manual lathe and mill, and neither has powered coolant flow, the baffles will be simple. Just basic cones.
Baffle length area is 8" (minus end cap), with the whole unit being 9". Bore size will be 9mm ,as it will also be used on a 9mm SBR.

If I go stainless, it'll almost certainly be welded, so tube thickness isn't an issue for end cap threads. If titanium, I could either weld or thread in the end cap.

What say the gurus?

[Dr.K]

Well, I've only had limited experience, but I have found that with 1.5" OD tubing..... .065" wall in 316LSS and .070" wall in Grade 9 Titanium, will handle the pressures you speak of.

I have only made threaded endcap cans with 28 pitch threads, no welding on mine. They have worked within the parameters you describe.

For the blast area, I have done 2 different things. I have used an extra thick tube, and bored out the section for the baffles, and left the blast area thicker, I also cut ribs in the blast chamber to increase surface area.

Then, I made one with a blast spacer that fit a uniform ID tube. The spacer was .050" and has worked fine.

[Gunfixr]

That's ok, limited experience is more than what I have.
I can cut whatever thread pitch is best, just make the tube threads and then fit the endcap to it.

I keep seeing here about threaded endcaps on titanium tubes blowing out due to tube expansion from heat.
If this is so, how does the suppressor stay tight on the barrel?
Expansion would cause the internal threads for the barrel to grow, and it would get sloppy on the barrel, and "droop" for lack of a better word. I would think that would cause baffle strikes.

[Gunfixr]

Looks like it'll be stainless. I was at the welding supply today, the argon bottle needed refilling. Anyway, I asked about Titanium filler rod.
They don't keep it, it's ordered when necessary. Anyway, the last time somebody wanted some, it was $250 for 1lb of 1/16" grade 5 TIG rod. Of course, 1lb is the minimum.
That, plus the materials will add up to $500 or more, and no work will have been done yet.

Apparently, looking around, threading titanium doesn't work well, as apparently it expands so much that the threads will just slip by each other. If this is the case, then I don't see how anything involving threads can even be doe with this, since even if you use coarse enough threads to keep it from slipping by, it would develop wobble, and hang some. The tilt would cause baffle strikes out near the muzzle.

I asked several questions about it, only got one answer. If everybody is trying to just make me use the search engine, they could at least say so. If I were a mind reader, I wouldn't be gunsmithing. However, I've tried the search, still trying it, getting ever more creative with wording. The search doesn't work very well, you can't use more than 3 words, which severely limits the search.

[daviscustom]

A lot of the high pressure rifle cans have welded endcaps....since they are much cleaner without the lead build-up and such that is in a 22lr, they don't usually need to be taken apart. Just make them out of material such that they can be solvent dipped for cleaning. For a multi-caliber take-apart can you are kinda on your own figuring out how to build it so it doesn't spontaneously disassemble.


You could try a captive tube monocore where the tube isn't threaded, just heald captive between an endcap and the other end of the core.
No threads, no problems .

[Historian]

A lot of the high pressure rifle cans have welded endcaps....since they are much cleaner without the lead build-up and such that is in a 22lr, they don't usually need to be taken apart. Just make them out of material such that they can be solvent dipped for cleaning. For a multi-caliber take-apart can you are kinda on your own figuring out how to build it so it doesn't spontaneously disassemble.


You could try a captive tube monocore where the tube isn't threaded, just heald captive between an endcap and the other end of the core.
No threads, no problems .

This design also allows for more than one concentric tube to be held in circular grooves of end caps.
Why?
A paradigm:

<< http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... P-Drwg.png >>

If I can locate the analysis in the dusty archives, it is the volume, not the internal shape that
has been found to attenuate non-linear turbulences.

Just a thought.

[Gunfixr]

First, I've made a new baffle stack to replace the aluminum one I had made for the Burgess suppressor. I used steel 1.5" freeze plugs, pushed somewhere between a 30 and 45 degree cone into them, and welded short sections of thin tube to them to act as spacers, so they just stack one upon the other. I made them in 3 different heights, so they might be able to be rearranged to "tune" in the sound.
I now just have to get the fellow to come by so I can install them and finish adjusting the total length of the stack.

Second, I acquired a stainless freeze plug, and it way more difficult to push a cone into, at least with what I have. I didn't get near the cone in that that I did in the others.
So now, I'm rethinking the ss freezeplug idea.
I could still use the regular steel ones, but i wanted to weld it together, but don't want it to rust away internally.
It would take more time, but I am thinking monocore.

So, my question is, if I use Grade 9 Ti, with a 1.485" ID, having an .070" wall, will it hold full power .308 and 5.56mm by itself, or would I have to make a blast chamber liner?

If it is not sufficient, will venting the blast baffle to the second chamber cure that?

I'm thinking the blast chamber would be 2" long, at least.

[Bendersquint]

So, my question is, if I use Grade 9 Ti, with a 1.485" ID, having an .070" wall, will it hold full power .308 and 5.56mm by itself, or would I have to make a blast chamber liner?

If it is not sufficient, will venting the blast baffle to the second chamber cure that?

Welcome to the world of R&D, you are manufacturer, give it a try!

[Gunfixr]

Is that a real answer, or a smarta$$ answer?

I don't mind that, except for the price of Ti tubing, and burst shrapnel.

I could get .087" wall, but it's only 1.326" ID, and I think that will be getting too small for .308.

[Capt. Link.]

Maxim silencers were made of mild steel and the 30-06 models were but 1.00"OD.After you have done your materials analysis you will know if .07 is enough besides Ti likes to rip more than frag so no worry's.

[Gunfixr]

Maybe so, but how long were they? How quiet were they?

Mine will be 9" long, with 1" lost for mounting. That leaves 8" of suppression, minus at least a 2" blast chamber to the first baffle, since it is to be used for both .308 and 5.56mm. It will be used for 9mm as well, on an SBR, so the bore will be large enough.

Since I am looking for something reasonably simple (no cnc lathe), I was figuring more internal space would help overcome a slight lack of fancy design.

However, if 1.32" ID at 8" long of suppression area works, then I can do that. The raw materials are less, the work is the same.

I am still trying to settle on either a monocore or a stacked baffle design. I suppose the stacked baffles, such as a set of cones with spacers, would be easier to make on manual machines than cutting out a monocore. I end up getting a piece of solid rod either way. I just keep reading here about Ti opening up and letting go of threads, so a monocore has no real stress on the threads, as the pressure is expansion, not thread pulling.
The baffles has the advantage of the extra thickness of the spacers, but has the problem of expansion letting go the threads.
I could weld it, but from what I'm seeing, you need a gas chamber to properly weld Ti, which I don't have.

This is the reason I ask about tube thickness, as the monocore doesn't leave much options for adding thickness at the blast chamber.

[Bendersquint]

I just keep reading here about Ti opening up and letting go of threads, so a monocore has no real stress on the threads, as the pressure is expansion, not thread pulling.

Please post the links to all these Ti tubes opening up and letting go of threads.

[Gunfixr]

Well, the strange thing is that no one has put up a specific instance, but at least a couple have stated that a titanium outer tube expands so much in relation to it's end cap that it will expand right off the threads, or at least enough to reduce thread contact enough to allow the end cap to blow off.

About one third down the page: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=113750&hilit=threaDING+TITANIUM

Now, at 1am, that's all a couple searches find. I remember seeing it on more than one thread, though. But then, I've been searching around here so much for the last few weeks it's gotten hard to remember where everything was.

If the expansion thing is wrong, please, let me know. I've spent hours searching welding grade 5 to grade 9, since the tubing is grade 9 and the bar stock grade 5. I can't find anything very reassuring.
But I know quite well how to thread, inside and out.

[Historian]

This information might prove useful:

<< http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/therm ... d_859.html >>

Factoid: SR 71's Titanium Skin expanded during flight so Skunk Works
folks fit the skin plates with epsilon gaps so that they could expand tight.

It leaked fuel on take off and was refueled in flight after the skin expanded.

Glorious plane. Wonderful era. Great feeder. Gone but never forgotten.

[Capt. Link.]

Ti is very elastic that's part of the reason it rips.The Maxim was a mere 6.5x1.00@20+db.Sionics cans during Vietnam were larger longer and about the same suppression but he did use Ti. I'll take a Hel can any day!
But to answer your question basic engineering equations and practice will provide everything your need to learn about the use of Ti including elasticity vs thickness and the strength of compartmentalization.I like MARK's books.

[MCKNBRD]

Gunfixr, not to be exceedingly rude or anything, but you're an 07; that means that you stand to profit from these suppressors. We have several 07s on here that offer generic advice in public, and will be slightly more specific in private, but you can't expect someone to help you bypass that R&D learning curve just out of the kindness in their heart.

Basically, what you're looking for is a .30cal can with a .40 hole in it. Bottom line. It ain't rocket science; you want to pay me for my time I've spent over the past 3 years just learning about this stuff, I can provide you with a pretty darn good idea of what will work. If you've done much machining, you have an idea of where to look for thread strengths and expansion issues. If you've done much welding, you know where to look for metal compatibilities; don't expect the guys on here that have busted their rumps to learn stuff to just freely give it up so you can make some money off of it.

You may be a simple gunsmith with basic machining abilities; you might be someone from a full-on CNC shop that is trying to sneak one over on the good guys here and 'steal' intel. No one knows. I'll gladly give you plans/sketches that you could do prints from and make the parts on manual machines, if you're willing to pay. I'm not going to be bold enough to say that they'll compete with an AAC or Surefire or Gemtech can, but they're damn sure better than a freeze plug can. And it won't be ridiculously expensive, either.

If you don't want to do the research, learn about static and dynamic particulate infused gas flow, pressure vessel calculations, and basic research, I'd advise you to just buy a good muzzle can and enjoy it.

I really hate to be so harsh, but several previous responders have tapdanced around it long enough. Hints, suggestions, and suggestions about hints haven't worked. Time to bring the bottom line up front. You want to play in the 02/07 game? You gotta pay. Either in time, material, R&D, and testing equipment, or paying someone for their expertise.

Byrdman

[Gunfixr]

While I am the gunsmith for an 07, I am not looking for a "freebie" with which to go get rich with.
I don't play that game. I invented and marketed a gun product not too long ago, and my business partner stole it, so I already know how that is.
I am not asking for anybody to bypass the r&d, I simply have asked a couple basic questions, as I am not looking to blow up something in front of my face. I haven't asked anything about baffle design or monocore design, only about whether a certain thickness of tube would hold what I planned.
I will build my own core however I decide to, I wasn't even going to ask about the core.
I did plan on detailing the build and putting it up for all to see, so it wasn't going to be a "secret".
If I had a full cnc shop at my disposal, I wouldn't trying so hard to find a reasonably easy way to build it.
With a basic lathe and small mill, there is no way for me to compete in the suppressor market. I am planning on building two suppressors, the one mentioned here, and a .22lr unit. It is possible that a few friends may want a version of either and I could build one or two more. They would not be found sitting on the shop shelf for sale.
Hell, it should be pretty clear from my description. I want a suppressor to run on a .308, 5.56, and a 9mm.
How efficient can it really be? It may be good on one caliber, perhaps two, but never all three.
I am only looking to build a couple units to save myself a few bucks, and make something I haven't made before. I am always looking for a challenge.
I haven't found a 9mm can that is rated for .308, so I can't "just buy a muzzle can".

I do have a plan for an integral unit, which we may sell. However, it won't be like this one, that's for sure. It'll be much lower pressure than this. It still won't be high production, making each one as a "one off".

You can believe me or not. If you don't, whatever. I will eventually get where I want.

A couple have mentioned "doing the math". Well, where are the formulas?

[Gunfixr]

Thanks, Historian. That chart is useful.

Seems Titanium has less expansion than 316 SS.

So how come no one mentions SS tubes growing right off the end caps?

[Dr.K]

Thanks, Historian. That chart is useful.

Seems Titanium has less expansion than 316 SS.

So how come no one mentions SS tubes growing right off the end caps?

I think you are taking the swelling can off the threads a little too seriously.

Unless you try to melt the thing with full auto fire, you're likely not gonna do anything to it. If you plan on that type of abuse, then pick a different material. Titanium has it's niche, weight savings. For anything else, there are better options.

I can dump a whole mag thru my Ti can with .070" tube thickness, and it doesn't do anything but get hot.

[Gunfixr]

I don't have any full autos, not really planning on getting any. I get to play with one just often enough to satisfy my desires and rape my ammo budget.

I do want o be able to run a mag or two of 5.56mm through it without issues, but it will have a 9mm bore through it.
The .308 is a bolt gun, no high volume there.
The 9mm is hicap, but it's a pistol round.

Maybe I am overthinking it, but then, I overthink most things.
I'd rather overthink it than underthink it, some things you don't get a "do over".

I've ordered the Titanium, tube and bar.
It's going to be baffles, as I have most of the tooling I need to do that. I'd have to buy more tools to do a monocore. I haven't decided the exact shape of the baffles yet. My biggest problem now will be the rear end cap. The largest diameter is the muzzle of the 9mm, a large sized 3 lug similar to the Navy 3 lug, just bigger. Cutting the end cap to fit that should be real interesting. I may cut the lugs off, and permanently fit a threaded end to the gun. Even with the permanent guns mods, that would be easier. It's not like I am going to get the Rotex suppressor that fits it.
Since that will be largest, adapters wll be made to fit the .308 threads, and lock onto a 5.56 Vortex.

[whiterussian1974]

You have a truly beautiful build! Don't let anyone rattle you. There are plenty a jealous people that flame here.
I had this idea for my Glock 22 (.40) a few years ago. I thought: I've made a rectangular Form 1 for .375 CheyTac that was based on Soviet 12.7x108mm used in 1984 Afghanistan. Why stick w round tubes when they only get r^2(3.1416) when square gets d^2 volume. So I decided that a QD 1.25"Wx2"Hx8.5"L(including booster) would be a good use of available volume. (BAFTE allows Manufacturer to shorten length from specified but NEVER lengthen.) The next ? was the best baffle type and arrangement. I conducted a series of "thought experiments" imagining myself as a gas plume pushing a bullet and wondered which shapes would cause me to divert my path and cause me to prolong my stay in the suppressor. I came up with what I termed the Sigma baffle. Instead of passing the bore axis down the middle, I decided to bore .5" beneath the top so that I could still use my tritium sights just under the can top. This allows instictive shooting by looking down the length of the suppressor top without needing a sight picture, but lining the dots up makes sure that the muzzle is aligned.
The slanted top of baffle pushed gas into the bottom section of same chamber, then after swirling, the gas would have to change direction, go backwards, curve forward and move along boreline to exit the tube.
Lots of surface area also helped with cooling and creating boundary layer turbulence.
I'm sure that a professional machinist could get better results, and you prove that the result can be truly beautiful. I've thought of buying a SilencerCo Osprey, but am waiting for dB results before I make the purchase. My can is very finicky and prefers 200gr Speer Gold Dot.

[Bendersquint]

I've thought of buying a SilencerCo Osprey, but am waiting for dB results before I make the purchase. My can is very finicky and prefers 200gr Speer Gold Dot.

The dB results have been out for several years for the Osprey.....or were you talking abot dB results of your can?