10/22 integral build underway

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:58 pm

I've procrastinated long enough. Stamp has been sitting here for at least 9 months now (yet I complain about 9 month wait times) :) Received much help from Cpt Link on design, methods to do the work, etc. This project started life as one of his designs, similar to the monocore Enfield577 recently put up viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112842 which was also motivation to get on the stick with this one. Originally was going to be a chopped barrel with a core perm attached to keep it 1 stamp. I kept hemming & hawing around & "what if I do this instead?" until I finally settled on a design. I'd say the design was inspired by Cpt Link, modified by me, and then tweaked by Cpt Link so it's probably 90/10 his/mine & is shared with permission.

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It's a Green Mountain 10/22 bull barrel, blued steel. Midsouth had them on sale (maybe still do) for $100 shipped.

Tube is gr 9 Ti, 1" OD, .036 walls. That math works out to .928 ID to fit over a .920 core/barrel.

I'll post more details later tonight after work. So far, I have the materials & tools & have made a good fixture to hold the barrel for the machining operations. Chips start flying after work this evening. I only plan to work about an hour a day on this, so it will be a slow build, but will try to document it well for everyone.

Excuse the drawing - powerpoint is my CAD software so scale isn't perfect. But it's a good idea for what's happening. If you look at the pics of Enfield577's & then this drawing, you'll get it.

The end goal is to have a "sleeper" integrally suppressed 10/22. I want it to look like a nice 10/22 bull barrel rifle, but not easily recognized as different from a slightly customized 10/22T - at least not until it shoots.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by MCKNBRD » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:59 pm

Neat. Only thing I'd change would be to go ahead and turn the barrel down to where the sleeve OD is .920; that way, you'd be able to use any stock with the standard channel, and it would truly be a sleeper.

Keep me in the loop on your progress; check your PMs, too...

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by L1A1Rocker » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:21 pm

Excellent. Please take lots of pics of the build process. I know it can be a pain, but it is sure fun to "watch" the project come together.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:09 pm

Plan A (or maybe B or C) was to stay with a .920 OD. But relieveng .040 from my stock should be simple. I don't think anyone will be able to tell by just a glance that the barrel is .080 fatter.

The knurled end cap will be a giveaway but I can live with that.

Lots of pictures will follow. My intent is to document it well enough for anyone to really understand the process & make one themselves - assuming it performs & looks good enough that others would want to reproduce it. I probably won't get into 'Kyle-level' detail with the videos & all :)
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:03 pm

Got a little done tonight. First off, excuse the pics. I took a lot so shrunk them down & saved at medium quality to save on my server space/bandwidth. Second - and most importantly - excuse the messy lathe. I didn't bother clean it up for it's photo shoot. Yes, that's a lot of surface rust on it. Long story, but don't use Clorox to de-funk coolant unless you want to battle rust like a madman. I'll tear it down & fix it right one of these days but for now I just slather it in oil to keep it from getting worse.

Anyway........

This is the fixture I made. Just a V groove with a 3/8 square channel at the bottom. 1/4-20 bolts holding steel bands to strap down the barrel. 8 straps in all. Idea is once the barrel is clamped in & indicated on the mill table, I don't have to touch the setup until all milling is complete. I can just remove 1 strap clamp at a time when I need to work in that spot & then put it back. I'll only have to move the table in X axis & as long as I don't touch Y axis the chambers will stay aligned.
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Parting off 2" from end of barrel. I bought a 20" barrel (that's the size that was on sale). Keeping it 20" doesn't work for several reasons. (1) my form-1 is for 18", (2) I only have a 12" extension drill so I couldn't use more length for more chambers [wouldn't be able to open up the bore that deep], (3) I want an 18" vs 20" bbl.
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Turning end down to .497 to thread
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End turned down, shoulder cut square. Took pic before facing the muzzle end.
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Run off groove cut & blued for threading
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Cutting 28 tpi threads
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Threads complete
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Layout lines scribed. There's blue Dychem on there but hard to see in pic over the blued barrel. Each chamber will start on a line. If I were a little smarter, the lines would be the center of where the large chamber hole goes so as it is I have to mark them all again at the spot to start the center drill. Live & learn... There's also a horizontal line scribed that doesn't show up in pic to indicate TDC for me.
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Other parts for the build - laminated stock & Timney trigger group. Receiver is from a 10/22T that I bought just for the receiver. I sold the remainder of the rifle on eBay so net was the receiver costing me under $50. Not a bad deal.
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I really like the coloring of this stock. It's a Keystone Revolution Extreme cayenne color.
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That's all I got done today. Probably do the endcap tomorrow.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by doubloon » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:17 pm

Looks like fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Machine Gun Matt » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:01 am

That must be a magical 3 jaw?

How did ya indicate off the rifling so the treads will be concentric to the bore?
07/02 FFL-SOT

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:44 am

I didn't. Only holding an endcap that will keep the tube in compression. Not screwing a suppressor - or anything a bullet will pass through - on the end of the barrel. I want the cap flush with the OD of the barrel, not threads concentric to bore.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Historian » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:53 am

CMV, thank you for the visual treat. You chose the correct points
in the process to cause one to almost feel the continuous process.

What size is your great iron, spindle size, gearing, etc.?

Looking forward to your next installment.

Best.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:34 pm

My lathe a 13x40. I bought it used a while ago & for a Chinese machine it's OK. Very similar to a G4003G but a little different. 2hp single phase 220v, slightly larger than 1.5" spindle bore - probably 40mm. It's from Wholesale Tool. It has a gearbox so I don't have to change gears out for threading.

Not something you'd want for holding tenths or a production environment, but fine for my tinkering around. I got it, my mill (similar to a G3102), & a decent amount of tooling for $2k so I can't complain.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:49 pm

Drawing updated to remove expansion chamber & a couple unneeded ports.

Other than cutting stock for endcap, didn't get anything done yesterday.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by MCKNBRD » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:38 pm

Machine Gun Matt wrote:That must be a magical 3 jaw?

How did ya indicate off the rifling so the treads will be concentric to the bore?
Matt, it IS a magical 3 jaw. I am the reason CMV didn't get anything done last night; he spent a ton of time with me answering my stupid noobie questions and showing me what tooling would be wisest to pick up, help with fixturing, etc.

Just for giggles, he chucked up the barrel he's cutting and tightened it down; we put an indicator on it, and it was about a half-thousandth out.

Admittedly, we both knew that was the exception, but it was impressive, nonetheless.

Now, just waiting on my machine to get here and start setting it up, then slinging chips.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:10 pm

Got the endcap done tonight. Not a traditional endcap - it's more like an oversized thread protector. Came out nice, but not thinking I made it .920 diameter instead of the 1" it should have been. So now I have a great big thread protector for whatever. Material is 416 SS. Turned out well, but I was disgusted with myself for not catching on a lot sooner that I shouldn't be making it .920, so I called it quits for tonight. I'll repeat tomorrow, but this at least shows the process.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:43 pm

Remade the end piece - at the right size this time. Scribed the barrel again to reflect small changes to drawing. The smaller scribed lines that look like crosses indicate the start point for the center drill.

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Had a hard time getting a good picture of the cap on the barrel. The camera wanted to focus on anything but the end. The bevel on the cap matches the taper on the end of the barrel so it should look like one piece once Cerakoted
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:34 pm

Got a lot more done today.

Barrel clamped in fixture. Located TDC line. Located off barrel. Fixture clamped to table. I fought with it a bit getting it located just right. Ended up .002 of from end to end - I couldn't get it any closer.
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This was how I started my center drill. I lined it up on my marks & just made a tiny spot & then looked again to make sure it was right in the intersection of the scribe lines.
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After center drilling, I made through holes with an A size drill. Made a bunch of A-holes....ha ha ha ha....
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Example of moving straps to a different set of holes out of the way
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All the holes done with A drill
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All the holes done with a larger drill. I snuck (sneaked?) up on the holes with 3 more sizes
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Switched to an endmill. I tried my 13/16 but it chattered too much. Wrong style for steel - it's for AL but what I have. I should have went to endmills a lot sooner. They went over the rifle bore line without jamming chips a lot better than drills. You can see where I started this one with the 13/16 drilling endmill
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Following the endmill with the 13/16 for final size
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2-flute, high helix. Bad for steel. You can see the difference in surface finish from the 'right vs 'wrong' type endmill
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all 13/16" holes complete
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Milling the flat rear side of the 1st chamber
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That's it for today. Will start the 1/4" ports tomorrow

My order of work was bad I think. I did all the center drill holes, then all the holes with 1 drill bit, then all the holes with the next drill bit, etc. Problem with that was finding the center of the hole each time. Would have been smarter to just change tools & stay in one spot. I thought it would be faster than continual running the knee up & down & changing from drill chuck to collet in the spindle. But finding the center of these holes a gazillion times was equally time consuming. Probably a lot less chance for error going from center drill to finished size without moving the table at all.

SO biggest lessons learned today are the drilling endmill was pretty useless and I would have been a lot better off with a 4-flute centercutting endmill for steel and do all the operations on a hole at the same time regardless of how many tool changes that takes.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by twodollarbill » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:32 pm

Thanks for posting.....looks like a great project.
I just wished I took the time to take pics when working on something.

I know I may be getting kicked for asking this question.
But at what point does this factory barrel become a suppressor part.
I've seen target bull barrels with single or staggered dual or triple through holes
acting as muzzle brakes.
Drilling those holes or ports in those barrels did not make a silencer part.
Just curious :roll:

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:33 pm

Some more done this morning. All the ports are cut & everything is deburred. I didn't deburr anything inside a chamber or port. I think blasting it prior to Cerakote will take care of a lot of that for me. The drill to open up the bore thru the chambers should take care of where the ports meet the existing bore.

Trying to get a good pic of depth stop for ports. About halfway into the existing bore. I'm kind of fighting with a point & shoot for this project. It takes good pictures but only does autofocus. It will go right past a good focused picture on the screen & then say it can't focus. Not taking the DSLR into the garage. Anyway, even on macro settings it's really hard to get close up detailed pictures with it sometimes.
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All ports on one side complete
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Fixture took some abuse. That was the intent. I thought it would help reduce 'blowout' on the bottom sides of the holes & maybe it did, but there was still a lot of deburring. It was interesting to see how the amount of deburring necessary increased from almost none near the threaded end to a lot near the chamber end as the tool got duller
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Deburred with this taper point carbide burr. Did well, but wanted to bite into thin metal (that I didn't want to remove) at times.
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2 views of all the chambers/porting
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Detail view of porting. Trying to show how opposite ports are cut in a chamber since my sketch doesn't doesn't show it. One goes halfway thru the bore line at the front & from the 'top' & one goes halfway thru the bore line at the back from the 'bottom'. Obviously I got a little too deep with the scribe lines. Shouldn't hurt anything but lesson learned is to use a proper scribe & not a turning tool. I also see from this pic I need to go back & clean up that 1st chamber.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:37 pm

twodollarbill wrote:Thanks for posting.....looks like a great project.
I just wished I took the time to take pics when working on something.

I know I may be getting kicked for asking this question.
But at what point does this factory barrel become a suppressor part.
I've seen target bull barrels with single or staggered dual or triple through holes
acting as muzzle brakes.
Drilling those holes or ports in those barrels did not make a silencer part.
Just curious :roll:

I think this one became a silencer part the second a tool touched it because the intent was turn it into a silencer core. Without a tube around what you're describing it should be just as loud as without. If I installed this as it is right now, it would be loud w/o a tube - probably louder than than the untouched 20" bull barrel it started as.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Capt. Link. » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:09 pm

Excellent

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:40 pm

Was really afraid it would be more like:

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:07 pm

Got the bore drilled out & the tube notched for V-block.

Drilling the bore. I started with it a lot further in the chuck & pulled it our this far so I could see what was happening as long as possible. After that I really didn't like running the drill thru the headstock where I couldn't see what was going on. Another reason I like that sticky, foamy CRC cutting fluid. It stays in place so for stuff like this that's one less thing to worry about. But it drilled easily with no issues.
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Notched the tube out & it fits. Didn't take any pictures of that part. Not much to see really. I used the same fixture to hold the tube. 1/4" endmill and just made 1 cut. Stared on the mark for one side, moved in X to the rear mark for length, moved across in Y to the next mark, & then moved the other direction back in X to finish the cut. No drama. It was a little undersized - intentionally - so I test fit, cut a RCH of one side, test fit again, cut another RCH, etc until it fit just right. I deburred this by hand with the tool with the swinging hooked blade (still don't know what it's called - hand deburring tool maybe?) It was slow & these cuts left a little razor sharp burr on both sides, but much better than boogering it all up with the Dremel.
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Before I did the notch I faced that end & put a slight taper on the inside. The shiny part is that taper. It isn't much - maybe -.005 (.010 added to ID overall) at the end. Figured that would help the tube get past the O rings. I'll put a little chamfer on the inside of the rear of the cut for the same purpose. I'll have to do that with the dremel but it will be out of sight inside the tube.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:23 pm

I need to trim the corners a little so the top of the tube fits flush against the receiver. As it is now, there's a little gap because the bottom hits first.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Baffled » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:50 pm

Hey, thanks for posting this process! It's always good to see how other guys do work.

Having a sacrificial fixture like you did is probably the best way to do this work, and in fact without it, you'd end up with a lot of flexing and gross chatter.

Getting those big holes in something like this is always a challenge. My own thoughts would have been center drill, drill through with a 1/4" carbide straight-flute drill, open that with a twist drill that is about 0.015" less than desired final dimension (or a preferably carbide CC end mill), and then it'd be time to unleash a single-point boring head. For many home mills, a boring head is about the best/only way to get good holes much above 1/2". The nice thing too is that a boring head has low cutting forces, would remove all chatter marks, leave behind a very clean hole, and remove any wandering or runout from the twist drill op.

Plunging end mills can be nasty, but I've done it enough. It definitely works. If you can afford a solid carbide job, it'd go a bit easier. ;) I once plunged a solid carbide center-cutting end mill directly into a high-speed steel tap that had broken off in an aluminum crank case. That carbide ate that HSS tap like butter. It was amazing.

I like what I'm seeing, please keep it up. It's going to be a cool project when done.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:15 pm

Got the tube fitted & trimmed to length. Modified the end cap with a shoulder for the tube. Turned grooves for O rings & added those. I think all the hard parts are done. I need to fit the larger barrel to the stock but the rest is pretty much finish work like Cerakote & engraving. Sorry - didn't get pics of machining anything. Freezing in the garage so I wanted in & out of there tonight. O ring grooves just cut with a 3/32 parting tool. Nothing fancy. Tube takes a little twisting & force to clear the O rings - hope it comes apart OK when filthy inside. In theory the tube behind them will stay clean so it should work.

Everything assembled.
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Tube flush against receiver. Barely ground off corners of tube to get it to fight right.
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Had to re-cut the end of the end cap & core because I trimmed the tube a hair too short
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Shoulder on end cap for tube to slip over. Put a TINY chamfer inside end of tube so they'd go together. It's a real tight fit - tube ID is .928
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by HK91 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:53 pm

Nice job.

How did you crown the barrel?

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