10/22 integral build underway

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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CMV
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:54 am

If you look at the drawing in 1st post, the 'barrel' ends at about the 5.5" mark. That's the 1st chamber that I milled flat across. That's technically the barrel crown. Someone has a tool they're loaning me to actually get in there & put a chamfer around where the bullet exits the factory rifled barrel part.

For the end cap & end of the core (or end of what's left of factory barrel if you look at it that way) & just did it in the lathe with the cap screwed down as tight as I could get it. Cut both at once. Did a regular facing cut going from the outside in, fed in with the compound for the angled part, then continued the facing cut.

Maybe I should have taken some pics of that? Looked like a pretty basic facing operation, but I have a lot of pictures of other mundane stuff. Lathe is still set for that so I can show how it was done if you want.
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BenY 2013
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by BenY 2013 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:40 am

CMV wrote:If you look at the drawing in 1st post, the 'barrel' ends at about the 5.5" mark. That's the 1st chamber that I milled flat across. That's technically the barrel crown. Someone has a tool they're loaning me to actually get in there & put a chamfer around where the bullet exits the factory rifled barrel part.

For the end cap & end of the core (or end of what's left of factory barrel if you look at it that way) & just did it in the lathe with the cap screwed down as tight as I could get it. Cut both at once. Did a regular facing cut going from the outside in, fed in with the compound for the angled part, then continued the facing cut.

Maybe I should have taken some pics of that? Looked like a pretty basic facing operation, but I have a lot of pictures of other mundane stuff. Lathe is still set for that so I can show how it was done if you want.
I'd really like to see the picture of the tool you are mentioning here as I was wondering about crowning as well.

Ben

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by MCKNBRD » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:24 am

Looks GREAT!

Too bad my machine isn't set up, or I'd have you over and we could engrave it.

Can't wait to (not) hear it!

Byrdman

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:42 pm

Might head down to the range Sunday late morning if you want to go. Depends on how long it takes to get the stock fit. And if this rain is gone by then.

They have matches Sat morning & then it's typically crowded afterwards since no other shooting is happening during the match. I picked up a Sig P938 a few weeks ago & haven't shot it much so it needs more range time before I'm comfortable carrying it.

Yeah - not really looking forward to engraving it on the manual machine. Real PIA for Ti.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by HK91 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:39 pm

CMV wrote:If you look at the drawing in 1st post, the 'barrel' ends at about the 5.5" mark. That's the 1st chamber that I milled flat across. That's technically the barrel crown. Someone has a tool they're loaning me to actually get in there & put a chamfer around where the bullet exits the factory rifled barrel part.

Thanks for the info. I am not a gunsmith, nor have I made a suppressor yet, but I have recrowned a couple old 22's in the past. I figured you had a way to break the sharp edge from milling across the bore, just did not see it. I was thinking maybe a brass round headed screw with some kind of extension to drive it and break the sharp edge uniformly.

I am watching intently on the final results. You have done a great job showing the details.

HK91

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Baffled » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:43 pm

One way to crown it would be to turn a little brass slug at the proper angles, thread the other end 10-32, and thread it onto a cleaning rod. Then, add a little lapping paste or valve grinding compound and go for it with the rod chucked in a hand drill.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:05 pm

Got the barrel/tube fitted to the stock tonight. Tried a couple different ways to relieve the wood but ultimately used the 6" section of tube that was left over & wrapping it in 100 grit sandpaper. After I got it to fit I went over it with some 320 grit. Took a long time, but turned out well. Still need to seal the wood.

Got the receiver, tube, rail, & endcap blasted & prepped for coating. Barrel is in the oven for stress relief.

I don't blast enough or have the space for a cabinet - even a small one - so I use this little spot blaster from HF. It works well, but since the media isn't recovered it's pretty wasteful.

Image

Parts after blasting
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My process to prep for Cerakote:

Clean in warm soapy water scrubbing with nylon brush & bottle brush. Blow dry with compressed air. Clean with acetone either by just dunking small parts or pouring over & wiping with saturated rags for large parts. Heat to 350° for about 45 min & then look for 'wet spots' after it cools. If there are any from oils seeping out, acetone again. Then blast with 100 grit al oxide. Just blast enough to etch the surface. Then rinse well & look for shiny spots that weren't blasted well. If any, spot fix those & then blow with compressed air. Then a final wipe with acetone just before applying Cerakote.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by BenY 2013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:38 pm

Not to thread jack, this core got me thinking. I was told that if the chambers are not offset and straight in a line like this that the bullet could become unstable and may cause a baffle strike. True? Or will the bullet stay flying true through these? Thanks!

Ben

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:56 pm

I don't understand what you're asking. Do the chambers need to be perfectly aligned like mine or do they need to be offset to prevent strikes? I don't think it matters - there are a ton of different monocore designs out there & many use various shapes, angles, etc for chambers.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by BenY 2013 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:51 am

"A monocore with all chambers being identical can cause bullet instability, even if the blast chamber is different dimensions."

"Unless you differentiate the chambers some how you may get a baffle strike. "

These were both taken from a thread in another forum discussing a monocore design very similar to this, with all chambers aligned. I was just wondering if there was any truth to what these two members are saying or if it even really matters?

Love this build by the way, I really enjoy seeing pics of the build process!

Ben

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by gunny50 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:24 am

BenY 2013 wrote:"A monocore with all chambers being identical can cause bullet instability, even if the blast chamber is different dimensions."
"Unless you differentiate the chambers some how you may get a baffle strike. "
These were both taken from a thread in another forum discussing a monocore design very similar to this, with all chambers aligned. I was just wondering if there was any truth to what these two members are saying or if it even really matters?
Love this build by the way, I really enjoy seeing pics of the build process!
Ben

Enfield made a monocore in a design like this, NO problems there.

HAve to say it was not that long..

Gunny

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:47 am

BenY 2013 wrote:Not to thread jack, this core got me thinking. I was told that if the chambers are not offset and straight in a line like this that the bullet could become unstable and may cause a baffle strike. True? Or will the bullet stay flying true through these? Thanks!

Ben
Hi Ben its BS the bullet is gone before the gases have time to screw with the bullet much.If anything the asymmetry of the offset chambers would cause instability problems over the symmetrical inline.Years ago I tested inline and offset and found the inline to provide more suppression as well.We have a member here that did build a offset that worked well he called it (lumpy) but he spent hours and hours adding to the internal volume by carving away at the core it was a magnificent achievement.
This design was meant to be simple,the original was built in a bombed out building on a drill press in 1983 while I was in service and is the inspiration for my studies in suppression to this day.
CMV has added to the design greatly.His use of a barrel for a core and multiple chambers of small size to camouflage the suppressor is a first.I may revisit the design to see if improvements can be made with this incognito variant.
The first was called the MF,care to speculate. I hope CMV will add his own moniker to this child of his.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by BenY 2013 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:30 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
BenY 2013 wrote:Not to thread jack, this core got me thinking. I was told that if the chambers are not offset and straight in a line like this that the bullet could become unstable and may cause a baffle strike. True? Or will the bullet stay flying true through these? Thanks!

Ben
Hi Ben its BS the bullet is gone before the gases have time to screw with the bullet much.If anything the asymmetry of the offset chambers would cause instability problems over the symmetrical inline.Years ago I tested inline and offset and found the inline to provide more suppression as well.We have a member here that did build a offset that worked well he called it (lumpy) but he spent hours and hours adding to the internal volume by carving away at the core it was a magnificent achievement.
This design was meant to be simple,the original was built in a bombed out building on a drill press in 1983 while I was in service and is the inspiration for my studies in suppression to this day.
CMV has added to the design greatly.His use of a barrel for a core and multiple chambers of small size to camouflage the suppressor is a first.I may revisit the design to see if improvements can be made with this incognito variant.
The first was called the MF,care to speculate. I hope CMV will add his own moniker to this child of his.
Thank you for clearing that up for me. It seemed wrong but I just wanted to know from the experts! Thanks

Can't wait to see this integral all finished, thinking of doing something similar to my CZ 455.

Ben

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:52 pm

Got Cerakote done tonight. Rifle is assembled. All that is left is test firing, any tweaking, & engraving. Still need to seal the wood where I fit the stock too. I still need to chamfer teh cut part of the tube. I noticed it shaving an O ring as it passed.

Coating turned out well. About 1.5 mil thick - added .003 to OD overall on the core. I thought I was spraying a little heavier, but it's hard to tell. This is the H series that's heat cured but less temperature resistant than C series which is air cure (go figure). I think it's rated for 450° & I have no idea how hot a 10/22 barrel gets with normal use. If I see heat issues with the coating, it'll get blasted off & re-coated with C series. The H is a lot more durable so that's why I went with it. Plus it was in the gun from doing the exterior parts so why waste it since I mixed a little more than I needed. The color is tungsten mixed with a little armor black. Was trying to get close to the gray tones in the stock & I think it got pretty close.

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Barrel, tube, & endcap weigh 1lb 15.5 oz. Just a hair under 2 lbs. I didn't think to weigh the barrel before I started but I'm sure it was over 3 lbs. With the weight concentrated at the front, this sure doesn't handle like a front-heavy bull barrel. It should be fine for off-hand shooting.

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A few views of the assembled rifle. Nikon Monarch 3-9x40 on top. I think I want rings about 1/2" higher.
Image

Image

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Random web image for a similar rifle with bull barrel. I think mine looks pretty close to that.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:54 pm

BenY 2013 wrote: Thank you for clearing that up for me. It seemed wrong but I just wanted to know from the experts! Thanks

Can't wait to see this integral all finished, thinking of doing something similar to my CZ 455.

Ben
If your CZ 455 shoots anything like my CZ 452 I wouldn't do this. Mine is crazy accurate. I wouldn't want to risk messing that up.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by sonmtn » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:04 pm

hey that looks like my couch to bad i don't find goodies like that stuck in the cushions
Damn fine work thanks for sharing

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Wicked » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:49 pm

Really nice work! Have you shot this yet? Would like to see that metered. Volume is your friend.


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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:52 pm

I don't have any type equipment to meter it. I do plan to do a video & will compare it to my K can on a pistol.

I hope others copy it or do something similar incorporating their own ideas & tweaks. That was the intent documenting everything, showing or describing tools & how I went about things, and things I should have done differently. I wouldn't have nor couldn't have done it without the information & help from people here. So if it helps someone else build one, great.

A nice thing about this design is the simplicity. I really think you could build this with just a drill press & a Dremel tool. Might have to start with a threaded barrel, but the machining part isn't complex.
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by BenY 2013 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:05 am

CMV wrote:
BenY 2013 wrote: Thank you for clearing that up for me. It seemed wrong but I just wanted to know from the experts! Thanks

Can't wait to see this integral all finished, thinking of doing something similar to my CZ 455.

Ben
If your CZ 455 shoots anything like my CZ 452 I wouldn't do this. Mine is crazy accurate. I wouldn't want to risk messing that up.
If I do I'll start with another barrel as to not screw up my already very accurate barrel! Just in case :roll:

Ben

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by Baffled » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:11 am

Shoot it! Shoot it! 8)

That barrel will get nowhere near 400 degrees. Picture how hot that would be... water would hiss off as steam if you sprinkled some on it. No 10/22, FA or otherwise, will get that hot.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:28 pm

Engraving complete. Hard to tell from pic but engraving is on underside of barrel

Image

This is what I engrave with. It's pretty old & ragged, but it works OK. Very slow process. I think it was intended for jewelry & fairly small things. I tapped a few of the holes & use strap clamps to hold work - the vise on it is really small so that lets it hold larger objects w/o them moving. I can fit an AR receiver on it but that's about as big as I can get.

I bought it from ebay specifically for doing silencers & 80% AR lowers. When those projects are all finished, I should be able to get my $ back out of it.

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Scanned & printed F-1 & stamp on 5x7 heavyweight paper. Can stay in bottom of range bag.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:32 pm

Back from first range trip. Worked well. Some accuracy issues to address & those scope rings are definitely too low. Tried 8 different kinds of ammo & ran them all fine without any issues. Probably about 150 rds total today with no issues. Pretty quiet on subs. Action is really loud too - never really thought about how loud that part was before.

These are velocities I got from different types of ammo. 5-shot avg over the chrony. Was 52° & sunny today - real nice day for Dec.

CCI Mini Mag
1095.4

CCI Std Vel
949.6

Rem Golden
1150.4

Aguila subsonic
933.2

Win SuperX subsonic
925.6

Federal Auto Match
1024.4

Wolf Match
911.4

SK Standard Plus
868

Video from 2 angles comparing it to my K can.

http://youtu.be/7iDWpNIMCIg
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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by mollinst » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:49 pm

Great job. Sounds terrific.

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by a_canadian » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:18 pm

Couple of questions. Which rounds were you using for this video comparison? And, with videos being notoriously misleading thanks largely to inadequate microphone quality/response to short bursts of loud or intense noises, I'm curious about specifics of your subjective impressions in comparing the suppressed Ruger with K baffles and the new integral. My impression from several listenings at both angles, jumping back and forth to the spots in the video with each shooting in turn, is that the new integral is significantly quieter than the suppressed pistol. Not massively quieter, but a significant step down with almost no 'aftertaste' if you will. The Ruger has a longer-attenuated sound, the rifle is a shorter, crisper sort of sound at what seems to me a slightly lower volume, which obviously reduces the impression of it being a gunshot. More of a loud twig snapping. The longer sound from the Ruger is pretty easily heard as a gunshot, again, from my impression of the admittedly limited video sound quality. So could you describe what your impressions were between them?

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Re: 10/22 integral build underway

Post by CMV » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:18 pm

CCI std velocity so it was staying subsonic.

From the shooter's perspective the pistol is quieter - to me anyway. Maybe same level of noise but a different sound? I never noticed before today, but I was hearing the bullet in flight with the pistol - like a high pitch trailing off whine. You can hear a little of that on the video for some of the pistol shots. I assume that's what it was. The action noise is a lot louder/longer duration so maybe that's why I think the rifle is louder.

My camera (same one I took most of the photos of the build with BTW) didn't do a good job picking up the differences. The wind noise didn't help much either. Camera wasn't that far away - you can see it only took a few steps to turn it off at the end - but everything sounded louder in person from behind the gun. The unsuppressed was a lot louder, both suppressed seemed a little louder in person.

Both suppressed guns are Rugers BTW - 22/45 & 10/22
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