Dipping and plating various host metals.

[whiterussian1974]

I was just hoping that the knowledgable posters would post any info/experience w dipping, hardplating, electro-plating various metals. Nickel, Chromium, Zinc, etc. on Titanium, SS, Aluminum, Inconel, etc.
It seems that chromeplating a 304SS blast baffle would enhance heat resistance, metal fatigue, throat erosion, etc. Might be expensive and slightly redundent (Chromium already in SS,) but coating blast face might be worth it compared to new build, excess wear.

[Bendersquint]

50/50 hydrogen peroxide, distilled white vinegar. Aka "The dip".
Aluminum - No.
Stainless Steels - Yes.
Carbon Steels - limited, extended exposure will cause damage.
Titanium - No.
Carbon fibers - limited, depends on the bonding resin.

[whiterussian1974]

50/50 hydrogen peroxide, distilled white vinegar. Aka "The dip".

Is this for chemical cleaning? By Dip I meant Hot Dipping Chrome, Zinc, etc. Would hot dipping or electroplating the various metals be beneficial for corrosive or wear resistance?

Aluminum gets Type 3 Anodized, Marine Applications get Zinc coated to resist sea salts. I hoped that 304SS chrome plating on blast baffle initial surface might increase longevity. It worked for the M16 chamber that suffered many introduction problems due to high humidity in Vietnam.

Many pics of cans glowing red hot on here. Even a 3D-printed 100% sintered Titanium build in another Thread. Spitting sparks and fireballs after only a few rounds. Got me thinking that since Ti isn't heat fatigue friendly, maybe a thin coating of another material would help. I've even wondered about carbon precoating or cerakoting the blast chamber to assist extreme conditions.

I read a post that a company was introducing "Hoplon" baffles. Seems to be a new alloy and maybe a deflective geometry. I don't have good details though. "Proprietary"

PS: My 1st love was 1930s-40s aerospace designs/engineering. I often look back to jet turbine tech when thinking about suppressor design/machining. Early Turbine blades suffered from heat fatigue and tensile stresses.
I'd like to try an addition of stators behind the muzzlebrake on a reflex blast tube. Just not worth the extra $200 stamp yet.
Too bad that there isn't a $500 make and buy all the NFA items you want license. Even better than the current 3yr FFL.
It's too bad our "Elective Representation" doesn't care about Human Health and Safety. It'd be nice if OSHA and HHS would Rule suppressors as Hearing Safety Devices like foam earplugs. But history shows they would require the addition of 18dB moderators on all future firearms and add the manditory $200 Tax and 18 month wait prior to ANY purchase.

[Bendersquint]

In my experience only surface treatments can help in a can. Chrome plating has been done and was found to flake and come off even when properly plated. Blast chambers are nasty environments.

The Hoplon baffle is from Silencerco/SWR. It is made from stellite. While it has been used before as a baffle material they are the first to mainstream its use in the commercial market.

[57fairlane]

I hoped that 304SS chrome plating on blast baffle initial surface might increase longevity. It worked for the M16 chamber that suffered many introduction problems due to high humidity in Vietnam.

Many pics of cans glowing red hot on here. Even a 3D-printed 100% sintered Titanium build in another Thread. Spitting sparks and fireballs after only a few rounds. Got me thinking that since Ti isn't heat fatigue friendly, maybe a thin coating of another material would help

The 304 plating would be interesting to try. Heck, plating anything would be interesting from a blast baffle perspective.

With PVD being so common nowadays, someone needs to try a TiALN coated baffle.

Or maybe someone already has?!?

As far as your plating question is concerned, my only experience has been electro-less nickel plating which holds up just fine to the dip over 4130/4140.

[Baffled]

I electroplated nickel onto an annealed 4340 carbon steel shaft to be used as the primary shaft in a miniature turbojet engine. The idea was to increase the hardness, and also create an area for mating to the expensive hybrid ceramic bearings that would turn upwards of 160,000 RPM... That's 6X a Dremel at top speed.

I turned the shaft down at the bearing site to minus 0.0015" - in other words, bearing no fitee on shaft. Shaft too small.

I set up the shaft (pre-coated with copper) to hang from a wire into the Caswell's nickel bath. I found that the nickel built up at a rate of about 0.000,4" per hour at an easy, low voltage. It was nicely repeatable and controllable. The best part was (I tried this on scrap first) when heated to a dull red heat with a propane torch, then cooled, it looked about the same as it did before, except there were some heat colors. No carbon, no scale, no peeling of the nickel. It was really cool. When I turned the bearing journals, it was obviously a very hard material, and in the end, I used abrasives for the fit.


This pic ^^ is not the shaft, but that IS the nickel bath...



I think electro-nickel (very easy) has a place in a shop, vs. electro-chrome (toxic and hard to do). Although chrome is undoubtedly a superior coating. Also, when you get set up for electroplating, you are very close to being able to anodize as well - got the power supply, the degreaser, etc.

I also think it'd be a simple and easy way to coat steel blast baffles, especially carbon steel, which would otherwise corrode. About 6 hours in the tank at a higher voltage would probably dump about 0.010" of Ni onto the baffle.

[Dr.K]

I have no experience with electroplating, but I have use moly-resin on 4 silencers, and it seems to be holding up really well under hunting situations. Some is scraping off at the front corners ( I just cram the rifle/can between the seat and the console), but I've been impressed with it's durability vs. paint which I have also used.

[ChimeraPrecision]

I have a lot of tools and fixtures hard chrome plated and that coating is super tough. I also wondered if a nitriding process would be beneficial for baffles

[Bendersquint]

I also wondered if a nitriding process would be beneficial for baffles

Yes it does have benefits, thats why are doing the runs on customers baffles and nitride our baffles for our upcoming releases and custom cans.

[ChimeraPrecision]

I also wondered if a nitriding process would be beneficial for baffles

Yes it does have benefits, thats why are doing the runs on customers baffles and nitride our baffles for our upcoming releases and custom cans.

pm me with nitriding rates?

Have some inconel 30 call baffles I will need done soon

[Bendersquint]

I also wondered if a nitriding process would be beneficial for baffles

Yes it does have benefits, thats why are doing the runs on customers baffles and nitride our baffles for our upcoming releases and custom cans.

pm me with nitriding rates?

Have some inconel 30 call baffles I will need done soon

Pricing for nitriding is based on quantity and weight and how much room we have in the run. We usually combines customer parts with other parts we are running.

What are the dimension and specs on the baffles?

-matt

[Variable556]

What about plating the Ti core of a monocore can to eliminate sparking?

For example: If I bought a Tempar Tact. Ark30 can, and then had the monocore plated with chrome, nickel boron, or other suitable material (whatever's best). Is there a coating that would likely last a reasonable amount of time, and keep the Ti from sparking?

I'm all ears if that would possibly be feasible.

[Bendersquint]

What about plating the Ti core of a monocore can to eliminate sparking?

For example: If I bought a Tempar Tact. Ark30 can, and then had the monocore plated with chrome, nickel boron, or other suitable material (whatever's best). Is there a coating that would likely last a reasonable amount of time, and keep the Ti from sparking?

I'm all ears if that would possibly be feasible.

There are a couple coatings that will reduce Ti sparking but they would cost more than the can itself due to the surface area needing to be covered.

There is a reason its not done.

[Variable556]

Well, crap.

The reason I asked is because I was searching around about plating Ti, and I noticed some places use electroless nickel boron to plate it. I'm guessing that there's a special prep step before the process (for Ti), but I see nickel boron slathered all over AR parts these days.

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/en-bor ... ard-chrome

I would have thought that would work great on a Ti monocore, and I didn't think it would be that big of a deal. I guess I'll keep looking.

[Bendersquint]

Well, crap.

The reason I asked is because I was searching around about plating Ti, and I noticed some places use electroless nickel boron to plate it. I'm guessing that there's a special prep step before the process (for Ti), but I see nickel boron slathered all over AR parts these days.

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/en-bor ... ard-chrome

I would have thought that would work great on a Ti monocore, and I didn't think it would be that big of a deal. I guess I'll keep looking.

Don't forget that anyone that would be doing the treatment would have to be licensed as an 07/02 as that is a manufacturing activity.

[hotbrass]

Well, crap.

The reason I asked is because I was searching around about plating Ti, and I noticed some places use electroless nickel boron to plate it. I'm guessing that there's a special prep step before the process (for Ti), but I see nickel boron slathered all over AR parts these days.

http://www.pfonline.com/articles/en-bor ... ard-chrome

I would have thought that would work great on a Ti monocore, and I didn't think it would be that big of a deal. I guess I'll keep looking.

Don't forget that anyone that would be doing the treatment would have to be licensed as an 07/02 as that is a manufacturing activity.

OOPS! Never mind.

[Variable556]

I'd happily send it to an 02/07 if there any who can do it.

Price? I'm not too wound up about cost. That was never much of a consideration to me (within some mortal reasonability) for this rifle/can combo build. I'll have probably 3-3.5k in the carbine it's going on alone.LOL The cost of tax stamps, or the cost of plating a Ti core probably won't be that bad. I just want a good, short, light can that doesn't spark. Period.

FWIW: These guys only charge 100 bucks or so to do whole bolt carrier groups. http://www.bickenplating.com/#!price-and-ordering/c1q46 I realize it'd cost more to plate a core heavier. $200, $300? Good enough. I wouldn't care at all--- if it would last a reasonable amount of time. I've read that NiB can be plated up to .004" thick. It comes out at a hardness of 60-62 Rc, and can also be heat treated up to 72 Rc. That sounds pretty good to me, and I would think there is room to improve a Ti can somewhere there.


If no 07/02 is doing NiB plating, why can't a regular gunsmith do it? The FAQ here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html would seem to indicate that they can do it. They aren't changing the caliber, materially lengthening the tube, etc., etc., etc.... It isn't much different than having it cerakoted I would have thought?

"Q: May a licensed gunsmith receive an NFA firearm for purposes of repair?
Yes, for the sole purpose of repair and subsequent return to its owner. It is suggested that the owner obtain permission from ATF for the transfer by completing and mailing ATF Form 5 (5320.5) to the NFA Branch and receive approval prior to the delivery. The gunsmith should do the same prior to returning the firearm.
Only the face of the form needs to be completed in each instance. ATF Forms 5 may be obtained from the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. ATF Form 5 is also available on the internet at http://www.atf.gov"

[Bendersquint]

If no 07/02 is doing NiB plating, why can't a regular gunsmith do it? The FAQ here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html would seem to indicate that they can do it. They aren't changing the caliber, materially lengthening the tube, etc., etc., etc.... It isn't much different than having it cerakoted I would have thought?

"Q: May a licensed gunsmith receive an NFA firearm for purposes of repair?
Yes, for the sole purpose of repair and subsequent return to its owner. It is suggested that the owner obtain permission from ATF for the transfer by completing and mailing ATF Form 5 (5320.5) to the NFA Branch and receive approval prior to the delivery. The gunsmith should do the same prior to returning the firearm.
Only the face of the form needs to be completed in each instance. ATF Forms 5 may be obtained from the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. ATF Form 5 is also available on the internet at http://www.atf.gov"

Its not a repair, the ATF considers things like this to be a manufacturing activity and therefore need a manufacturing FFL/SOT.

BTW Cerakote is just a paint and classified as refinishing. Plating is classified as manufacturing.

[Variable556]

The ATF is seriously starting to damage my calm.

Every gorram time I think I've found a path to actually getting what I want, while wending through the miriad and capricious paths of the NFA, they pop out and piss directly on me...

Its not a repair, the ATF considers things like this to be a manufacturing activity and therefore need a manufacturing FFL/SOT.

BTW Cerakote is just a paint and classified as refinishing. Plating is classified as manufacturing.

I don't suppose you've considered doing NiB suppressor plating?

[Bendersquint]

I don't suppose you've considered doing NiB suppressor plating?

In fact we have along with a few other treatment options. Working on the costs right now but they are pretty prohibitive due to run sizes.

[Variable556]

I don't suppose you've considered doing NiB suppressor plating?

In fact we have along with a few other treatment options. Working on the costs right now but they are pretty prohibitive due to run sizes.

Well, if you do--- I'd be extremely interested.

I want a can for a 6.5 Grendel with a 12.5" barrel (shooting full power loads), and I want it to be as light as possible. That pretty much has Ti written all over it, but I don't want sparks, so.....

Will pay for NiB.LOL

I haven't ordered a can yet, because I'm trying to suss out the "ultimate" can for me. If I could get Ti plated (and NiB was suitable, which I believe it likely would be), that'd make my choice a heck of a lot simpler.

[Variable556]

You seem to be ahead of the curve Bendersquint. I just read over on Silencer Shop's Arf forum where Griffin is now making their Revolution 9 can with TiN plating on their stainless baffles. It says they claim the baffles will have 5x greater wear resistance.


If you ever decide to do NiB for Ti, what about a Thunder Beast 30CB7 can? They say they have a "360-degree fully-welded baffle core". Would it be hard to pop the core out and NiB plate the whole thing (or the back half)?

I imagine it'd be harder than doing a monocore like the TT Ark30 I'm currently looking at, but the claims for NiB plating say they are good at plating inside small spaces evenly, and supposedly achieve a uniform thickness....