Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

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cms81586
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by cms81586 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:52 am

Need to get some good SS tube to go along with the baffles. This is what happens when you don't use stainless, shoot a can wet, and don't disassemble for cleaning...
Image


Here's the start of the new SS baffles.... facing before reducing the baffle OD.

Image

About 80% done... The left most baffle is a little thicker and has a slightly longer flat at the OD edge of the cone. I'm shooting for it being able to handle 5.7x28 and under. They still need Dater hole/ports completed...but that'll wait until I get the ball end mill bit and have some more free time.

Image

Another.... They're .6" long each, so 5 of them makes 3". Shrinking down the blast chamber slightly I should be able to get in at around the 3 1/2" goal... not much longer but with an extra baffle and tighter bore (.260" this time instead of .280 on the AL baffles). No wipe in this one either. Again, the slightly beefier blast baffle is the one oriented differently than the other 4. The bores will get cleaned up (they're rough from parting). I may purchase a mini lathe for the shop just to do some of this little work. Anyone have suggestions on how to quickly and consistently chuck up small parts like this and keep everything true? I can do it...but even with practice it takes me forever to get these little baffles just right in the 4 jaw.


Image




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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by CMV » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:39 am

When I want to true up a small part with a square face in the chuck I use the back of an insert turning tool to do it. Put the tool in the tool holder so its inline with the lathe bore but the cutting end is facing away from the work. Put the part in the jaws, align best you can by eye/feel, and loosely tighten the jaws - just enough to barely hold it in place. Turn the lathe at low RPM and gently bring the back side of the tool into the work, just kissing it. Then stop the lathe with the tool still in contact with the work. Tighten the jaws securely. As you're doing this, you'll see the part go from wobble to stable as it's spinning.

This won't get it dead nuts, but it will be very close to it. Some guys make a special tool to do this with a roller at the end so there's less chance of marring the work, but the back side of a tool seems to be ok as long as it's square & not driving a corner into the face of the work. If the tool is set at the right height for cutting the back end is pretty high from center so it's not really trying to cut into the work - just pushes it in.

Only hard part is getting a feel for how tight "barely secure" in the jaws is. Too tight & it won't square up or the jaws will mark the outside as it's pushed in a little. Too loose & the jaws just spit the part out.

I've done kind of the same thing with a center in the tailstock. If the part has a center hole, loosely chuck it and then push it in with the tailstock center as it spins. When it looks good, stop & secure the jaws. For something like a K with a very skinny face that way works better.

If the "wrong" side is the square end, I put 2 parallels between the work and the chuck. Pick a size that gets the work exactly where you want it in the jaws. Push the piece against the parallels firmly while snugging the jaws. REMOVE THE PARALLELS before starting the machine (unless you want them violently flung toward you) and you should be really close. Again, not dead nuts, but very close.

There's probably a "right way" to get a small part perfectly indicated back in but since I'm just figuring out how to do things as I go, these are things I've found to work for me. I don't expect to hold tenths in my work - I'm just not good enough. Hell, I probably can't accurately & repeatedly measure tenths anyway. ± .001-.002 is perfectly acceptable to me when I'm trying to be precise. A real machinist will tell you .005 may as well be a quarter mile & in some cases it is. So far I'm happy with how my projects turn out with ± .002 tolerances and can live with "close enough". Blasphemy....
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by CMV » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:41 am

BTW - you might want to consider the C series Cerakote for suppressors. Depends on how hot you plan to let it get.
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by Historian » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:23 pm

CMV wrote:When I want to true up a small part with a square face in the chuck I use the back of an insert turning tool to do it. Put the tool in the tool holder so its inline with the lathe bore but the cutting end is facing away from the work. Put the part in the jaws, align best you can by eye/feel, and loosely tighten the jaws - just enough to barely hold it in place. Turn the lathe at low RPM and gently bring the back side of the tool into the work, just kissing it. Then stop the lathe with the tool still in contact with the work. Tighten the jaws securely. As you're doing this, you'll see the part go from wobble to stable as it's spinning.

This won't get it dead nuts, but it will be very close to it. Some guys make a special tool to do this with a roller at the end so there's less chance of marring the work, but the back side of a tool seems to be ok as long as it's square & not driving a corner into the face of the work. If the tool is set at the right height for cutting the back end is pretty high from center so it's not really trying to cut into the work - just pushes it in.

Only hard part is getting a feel for how tight "barely secure" in the jaws is. Too tight & it won't square up or the jaws will mark the outside as it's pushed in a little. Too loose & the jaws just spit the part out.

I've done kind of the same thing with a center in the tailstock. If the part has a center hole, loosely chuck it and then push it in with the tailstock center as it spins. When it looks good, stop & secure the jaws. For something like a K with a very skinny face that way works better.

If the "wrong" side is the square end, I put 2 parallels between the work and the chuck. Pick a size that gets the work exactly where you want it in the jaws. Push the piece against the parallels firmly while snugging the jaws. REMOVE THE PARALLELS before starting the machine (unless you want them violently flung toward you) and you should be really close. Again, not dead nuts, but very close.

There's probably a "right way" to get a small part perfectly indicated back in but since I'm just figuring out how to do things as I go, these are things I've found to work for me. I don't expect to hold tenths in my work - I'm just not good enough. Hell, I probably can't accurately & repeatedly measure tenths anyway. ± .001-.002 is perfectly acceptable to me when I'm trying to be precise. A real machinist will tell you .005 may as well be a quarter mile & in some cases it is. So far I'm happy with how my projects turn out with ± .002 tolerances and can live with "close enough". Blasphemy....
Brilliant! Just what I needed for starting to make a small gear for a very old clock and I was
bedeviled on how to set it up without buying an expensive disposable chuck or
making a special holder as the talented Enfield does so often.

For a larger piece I pressed a small bearing onto a SS pin I salvaged from
a computer printer board which I then pressed into a piece of drill rod.
Held in my Aloris, as you, I set the RPM at lowest setting, and rotated, say, 1.5"
disk true to chuck. Obviously does not work on a smaller part.

Also a 'chuck spacer': << http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vie ... 42&t=98304 >>


Thank you again for sharing such a 'why did I not think of that before' solution.


Best.

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by cms81586 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:55 pm

Appreciate the reply. That's actually very helpful and ill give it a shot when I go to cut the faces of the baffles. Thanks!

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by CThomas » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:39 pm

Image

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by CThomas » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:55 pm

cms81586 you have abandoned your original design and it sounded very cool. :(

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by Historian » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:56 pm

CThomas wrote:Image

Exactly.

Thank you for the picture demonstrating the 'ball bearing' center tool!

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by cms81586 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:40 am

CThomas wrote:cms81586 you have abandoned your original design and it sounded very cool. :(
I haven't abandoned it...just experimenting with different options. 4 baffles wasn't enough (even with wipes and an ablative) to get the report down to an acceptable level with a handgun. It proved very effective on a rifle, but just about anything will sound good on a rifle with subs. Experimenting with a few other options, mainly adding a baffle or two and going with SS baffles since I don't have the ability (easily) to anodize AL myself. The ablative port is still a viable option but testing with the original design wet still didn't get the results I was looking for. Ultimately, I'm playing around with ideas and options to see how quiet I can get in a small package. If I can keep it quiet when shot wet but with no wipes, I'll be happy, and adding 1/2" to the OAL is acceptable in my eyes. I'm no expert so I'm using a combination of trial and error and known things that work. It's been exciting and fun thus far and I'll keep everyone updated with the progress.

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by Baffled » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:52 am

Keep up the good work.

A home shop normal anodizing without color is actually pretty easy. All you need is a source of DC voltage that can be controlled, some battery acid, a tank, and preferably some sheet lead for the cathode, although other materials work.

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by igot_it » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:11 pm

A couple of things that might help you with wipes. One do not cut slits or shoot through material to get your wipes. Make a concetretic aligned punch on a lathe with a slightly undersized center section. A lot of the accuracy degradation comes from the bullets unevenly contacting the edges of the wipe. The less tight the fit between the bullet and wipe hole the longer the wipes will last and the less your accuracy will suffer. As bullets contact the wipe material they tend to shear off pieces of rubber that act as little pieces of shrapnel and take out other wipes in the can. Lubrication will help. It will also help you to make an assembly tool that keeps the wipes and baffles in alignment while you tighten the end caps. usually they have a small diameter long section like a cleaning rod and then a step that matches the id of your end cap closely. To use it you assemble the baffles and wipes on the small diameter section. Then you attach the first end cap and tube to the weapon. Then slide the core and end cap into the tube ans tighten the end cap. When all is aligned slip it out the muzzle end and the baffles will be in better alignment. Sorry if you already know all this.... :D

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by delta9mda » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:55 pm

Again, where's the port and the slanted side wall scoops. You are using only half the volume of the can and none of the k baffle features that make them work
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by delta9mda » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:57 pm

Ok had to read a lot more and see you are waiting on ball mill

Proceed ;)
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by Grounded » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:27 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn7A9PqNftY

using bearings to locate parts in lathe.
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by cms81586 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:22 pm

A few more of the SS baffles.... Thanks for the help with getting these little guys chucked up and indicated. Worked like a charm. Still waiting on ball end mill bit..... :|


Image
Image

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by delta9mda » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:23 pm

good job.
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:52 am

Have you thought of using Thinsulate or fiberglass sheets as a wipe. The fiberous nature of the material means they will spread apart and then reform after bullet passage, whereas rubber/etc will rip or tear from microfissures.
Maybe compress 1/2" of fiberglass into 1/4" space and try that? If we could make effective wipes out of soap bubble that collapsed and then reformed, that would be great. Is there any material that can do that?
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by a_canadian » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:07 pm

cms81586 wrote:Image
It seems you've countersunk those entry holes in this batch of K baffles, is that right? I'd suggest not doing that. Keep the entry edge crisp, just barely de-burring so there's more sheering surface adjacent to the projectile's flight to strip flow from the bore. Countersinking seems liable to force some gas pressure back into the bore line which seems counter-productive.

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:57 pm

a_canadian wrote:It seems you've countersunk those entry holes in this batch of K baffles, is that right? I'd suggest not doing that. Keep the entry edge crisp, just barely de-burring so there's more sheering surface adjacent to the projectile's flight to strip flow from the bore. Countersinking seems liable to force some gas pressure back into the bore line which seems counter-productive.
Correct. The purpose of coutersink/scoop is ONLY if one includes a cut/scallop to direct that captured gas ACROSS the boreline and into a Mousehole.
Maybe Maker has yet to perform that step or reason not to include it?
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by CThomas » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:12 pm

Crazy idea try reading more and speculating less!
If you did that you both would have read that the OP is waiting on ball mill
to finish the K's. :shock:

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by a_canadian » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:20 pm

CThomas wrote:Crazy idea try reading more and speculating less!
If you did that you both would have read that the OP is waiting on ball mill
to finish the K's. :shock:
Yes, obviously. Since that's what he wrote. Or perhaps my comment regarding countersinking wasn't one of the 'you both' to which you refer? OP didn't mention countersinking the main bore holes in the K baffles. And that's something NO ONE does in the industry! All the endmills in the world aren't going to fix an incorrect entry point like that. I'd suggest skimming off 1mm or more to be rid of the countersink and restore correct leading edge presentation to the bullet path, before milling your cross-vent.

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by delta9mda » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:30 pm

the countersink may give two edges to work.

let it go guys. he will be fine.
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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by Baffled » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:45 pm

Agreed, they look nice and will work.

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Re: Interesting .22LR Micro Can build...

Post by Capt. Link. » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:22 pm

Baffled wrote:Agreed, they look nice and will work.
+1 the bevels will come out with the wash.You don't really need a ball end mill to do your ports either a standard milling cutter will work fine.
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