Does anyone have ideas for radical designs?

[whiterussian1974]

I've seen some new iterations of various themes. Varied slantwalls, ribbed or corrugated baffles/monoblock, and rehashs/refinements of the various Greek Letters.
There's a US Patent 8,322,266 B2 that uses ventouri effect to pull air from the exit and mix it with the hot gases midstream in the can. This seems like a good theory, but so far I'm not aware of any success over conservative designs.
Hopefully people will feel free to post the craziest, most innovative idea/theories/designs that they can cobble together.

Please, NO rude comments or harsh critiques of posters ideas. We can find ways to softly explain our findings and experiences without chilling free-form imaginative thinking. We MAY see a sliver of light beyond the clouds, IF we keep our minds open.

Thanks

[Capt. Link.]

The wildest can I have ever seen tested was a wet can cooled by C02.It was fitted to a Mac-10 .45acp machine pistol.Designed for explosive atmosphere it was very effective and silent except for a hissing sound and and a weird fog that followed the user.I can see the look on the face of some whacked junky as a guy dressed in a camo hazmat suite and gas mask surrounded by a weird fog breaks down his door and hisses at him! I think that could sober up just about anyone.

[Historian]

I've seen some new iterations of various themes. Varied slantwalls, ribbed or corrugated baffles/monoblock, and rehashs/refinements of the various Greek Letters.
There's a US Patent 8,322,266 B2 that uses ventouri effect to pull air from the exit and mix it with the hot gases midstream in the can. This seems like a good theory, but so far I'm not aware of any success over conservative designs.
Hopefully people will feel free to post the craziest, most innovative idea/theories/designs that they can cobble together.

Please, NO rude comments or harsh critiques of posters ideas. We can find ways to softly explain our findings and experiences without chilling free-form imaginative thinking. We MAY see a sliver of light beyond the clouds, IF we keep our minds open.

Thanks

+2!

Classy as usual, Sir.

[Historian]

My first nomination ( from the panoply of
wacky 'Edgar Allen Poe' designs told about) :

One of the novel designs seen OCONUS was what
might be metaphorically called a 'hairy baffle' chamber
tube. From best recollection it was ~ 1.5" diameter, 9.5" (?) long,
with a baffle made of rolled fine metal 'porcupine quills', each strip around 1/16" x 3/4"
long. For .45 round.

Suggestive image:

<< http://shopseptember.com/street/flapper ... ini-skirt/ >>

No electronic measuring device was available in the 1960's
in the 'primitive' but creative engineering development lab
in the near distance from Subic Bay. So unreliable hearsay
reported that there was a marked pain reduction when a round
'traversed the confines'.

Amazing what native intelligence can do with tin snips and copper roofing sheet.

Were I to venture a guess at the physics involved my first analogy would be
the tufts of the Snow Owl whose target never hears it coming due to the surface
fractal topology of the serrate edge in their feather design.
sheets.

"Owl feathers are velvety thick and soft, absorbing a lot of the sound of their flight.
Their wings are big for their weight, allowing them to beat slowly as they fly,
which makes their flight even quieter.
And their primary feathers (the wing feathers that stick out like fingers) have a comb-like edge,
breaking the whoosh of each wingbeat into hundreds of tinier whooshes.
This silent flight has two purposes.
First, it makes it easy for the owl to sneak up on its prey.
Second, it allows the owl to keep hearing the prey in the dark, even as the owl flies in. " -

<< http://www.learner.org/jnorth/tm/spring/OwlFacts.html >>

[whiterussian1974]

The wildest can I have ever seen tested was a wet can cooled by C02...

I can see the look on the face of some whacked junky as a guy dressed in a camo hazmat suite and gas mask surrounded by a weird fog breaks down his door and hisses at him! I think that could sober up just about anyone.

Depends upon the substance. THC would probably cause giggles. LSD would be spiritual experience or panic. Meth = Zombie Attack Scene.(ala WW Z, not Walking Dead.)

Would the CO2 setup need to be refilled/replaced by 7/02? How was the CO2 release regulated?

[whiterussian1974]

Dr H, I was thinking more French Tickler or sea anemone instead of Flapper skirt.

During our PMs about anachoic chambers I mentioned stipling like shark denticles.

Or like GemTech G-series.

We discussed the merits of using flat reflective surfaces vs sharp refractive surfaces.
It was very informative.

In 1 of my Public threads I mentioned using a series of 7 Conch Shells w opening @ top and cilia wires of varied length and width w/i the curved bottom. Like inside the Human Inner Ear.
We could even have a wipe functioning as Ear Drum in the top openings. The whole can in shape of SWR's Osprey.

[Neil]

HoneyCone monocore

[Historian]

HoneyCone monocore

Kudos for aesthetically and visually pleasing design. A 'stack and rack'
of intriguing shapes. And effectively shown.

And it seems to have a pseudo-anachoic surface disrupter.
Now to retire to the Gedanken Lathe Room to imagine
reification steps.

Thanks for visual treat.

Best.

[whiterussian1974]

HoneyCone monocore

Sweet. Would adding longitudinal ribs to the flarings add any benefit? IE: cooling, turbulence, directionality, stagnation, etc?

I've seen this made w lateral ribs. Though have no SPL(a) data or subjective reports on it vs other designs.
(ETA pics:)

[Historian]

Dr H, I was thinking more French Tickler or sea anemone instead of Flapper skirt.

During our PMs about anachoic chambers I mentioned stipling like shark denticles.

Or like GemTech G-series.

We discussed the merits of using flat reflective surfaces vs sharp refractive surfaces.
It was very informative.

In 1 of my Public threads I mentioned using a series of 7 Conch Shells w opening @ top and cilia wires of varied length and width w/i the curved bottom. Like inside the Human Inner Ear.
We could even have a wipe functioning as Ear Drum in the top openings. The whole can in shape of SWR's Osprey.

An interesting fact about the ear's logarithmic spiral: it performs a Fourier Transform, mapping a time-domain
signal to the frequency domain ... and if one were to plot the time slices isometrically the surface the peaks
would generate corresponds to a kind of fractal contextual operation in real time.

E.g., << http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/a ... .large.jpg >>

Nature, using God's Laws, is an infinite (Aleph 2 ) laboratory that once in a while we are lucky
to catch a fleeting spark into. The wonder of a child that some grown ups
have been blessed with never having lost.

[whiterussian1974]

Nature, using God's Laws, is an infinite (Aleph 2 ) laboratory that once in a while we are lucky
to catch a fleeting spark into. The wonder of a child that some grown ups
have been blessed with never having lost.

I sure wish that I could Copy files from your brain to mine. Even if I couldn't make the same leaps in understanding, at least I could stand on the shoulders of a Giant, Newton-style.

[Dr.K]

I do, I do! Coming soon! I swear! Next month or 2 I'll release something tangible to the world via this site that has never been seen. But it's not radical in the way you may be thinking.

As far as performance Ideas, I've had thoughts about knurled insides, Cones that have a large step just where the clipped portion is to better cross jet, the closing trap door, internal spikes (which were mentioned here already) Large "ears" that provide tremendous volume on the lateral sides of the can, the expanding balloon idea, where the silencer is made of some heavy duty elastic polymer, that expands with the shot, and slowly lets the gasses out.

Sadly, these latter ideas of mine have either been done, or are very bad, or both.

[whiterussian1974]

Dr K, you posted while I was drawing my Bell Baffles concept.

It's based on DeLaval Nozzles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_laval_nozzle
Successive baffles form the pintle function of an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion ... ion_nozzle
Dr K, please post a MSPaint drawing of you concept. I'm going to visit my 87yr old Grandmother on her farm out of State.
And I doubt that I'll have access to this site after Mar10,2014. I use computer at Library during warm weather. Computer use makes cooling the house too difficult. It's like a 650watt space heater. And we've got 1830 sq-ft to condition.
And Library filters prevent "Silencer" sites being accessed.

[whiterussian1974]

How about a Bernoulli sleeved tube around the Pinecone Monoblock?

It "SHOULD" pull air from the end of the can, and suck it into the protected chamber section behind the Blast Chamber integral to the Endcap.

[57fairlane]

I've heard some crazy stories . . . never seen/heard one in person

I do know of a guy who has a way around silencerco's patent on the clamshells . . . not sure why it hasn't gone into production somewhere.

[Historian]

Under " ... the more things change, the more they remain the same":

This great invigorating thread caused me to remember a 1916 patent by E.W. Thompson
of New London, Connecticut. Ref: Donald B. McLean's "Firearm Silencer", 1968,
Normount Armament Co., p.63.

He articulated a principle: "It has ben found that, it is only necessary to construct
the bore substantially twice the length of the cartridge, for the projectile receives
its greatest force instantly at the time of the explosion".

His baffle system consisted of a " ... long assemblage of perforated spools to
catch and disrupt the blast of the gas."

A design possibly adaptable for patrons of a Tex-Mex Taco Bell?

Recently this forum had images of a design of a single rod that was machined
like a Tootsie-Roll with each section's diameter reduced to within the diameter of the projectile
and then holes drilled in to allow a resemblance to Thompson's perforated spools.

WR's image for a lateral cut design adds an interesting fillip to the Thompson
design, with the walls slanted 45º.

A question for our august machinists here:
given a rod, is there a tool design and set up
that would allow one to slant machine 45º notches/peplums, like
stacked funnels with spacers, instead of having to assemble
a stack of cones? Then one could have a monocore without needing
a milling machine.

[whiterussian1974]

This is for an automotive Muffler, but interesting geometry with Firearm implications.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7159692.pdf
It features Rhombic and Trapazoidal shapes that direct blast to more effeciently bring gases off boreline.
Some monocores already feature some of this, but it can help stimulate us Theorheticians.
Figures 2 and 8 are what have attracted my attention.

[thecat]

Please excuse my ignorance. I am a newcomer to suppressor theory. But This thread subject seems to invite brainstorming and that inspires me to throw out a couple ideas for discussion.

I realize that these ideas cannot have gone untried before but reading knowledgeable replies will be enjoyable either way.

First Idea - Having a pressure bleed-off chamber (like a double wall or second cylinder) where gasses would be allowed in via a one way valve. This would operate like a much larger chamber. Baffles could also be used but anything over a certain pressure would bleed into the second chamber and then released slowly by another valve or back into the primary chamber by the same valve when pressure drops.

I see some obvious cons: It may only work in slow fire situations (snipers for example). Full auto might make the second chamber useless. Also, the valve's moving parts might get fouled.

Second Idea - How about water, antifreeze or Freon cooling? - (miniaturized WW-I water cooled machinegun) Again, a double wall (like a thermos) and/or tubing that spirals inside and out, in such a way that coolant would automatically flow from hot (high fluid pressure) to cooler (low fluid pressure) areas... thus taking heat with it like a radiator.

Just brain storming and it'll probably be my first and last attempt. Maybe it will spur some interesting discussion if nothing else.
Thanks for reading!

thecat - out

[whiterussian1974]

Your 1st idea is often used in integral barrels. IE: 10/22s,etc.
It has also been successful in several designs from 1930-60s.The bleed hole is in the barrel and traps gas as a limited 1way valve before the bullet exits barrel. Then releases gas only after can has cooled and released a substantial ammount of its gas.
You 2nd idea was alluded to by Cpt Link as a CO2 cartridge releasing into blastchamber.
I'd love to hear more about this design. Especially how the release is triggered and controlled.

You've got good ideas Cat. Keep researching and imagining. Coming up with ideas that others have tried means that we are on the right track. I am always encouraged to learn that others have tried ideas that I have later thought of. It means that we are following in the footsteps of Giants. Like the way that Sir Isaac Newton said that he stood on the shoulders of Giants.

Who knows how many Classified Projects Gov'ts have developed that have never come to light.
China may have a nearly silent model that simply hasn't found its way into US hands.
Please keep thinking and posting. That's how improvements are made. By pooling our collective resources.

[karl_t]

OK, here's your chance to shoot my whacky idea down.

http://www.kandpengineering.com/2168.shtml
stainless oil filter media inside the suppressor. selected this one for a 9mm can.

Karl

[Capt. Link.]

OK, here's your chance to shoot my whacky idea down.

http://www.kandpengineering.com/2168.shtml
stainless oil filter media inside the suppressor. selected this one for a 9mm can.

Karl

Bang!

[karl_t]

OK, here's your chance to shoot my whacky idea down.

http://www.kandpengineering.com/2168.shtml
stainless oil filter media inside the suppressor. selected this one for a 9mm can.

Karl

Bang!

Ah come on, you got to do better than that. paper filters are amazingly effective. The screen is similar to what you see on some small engine mufflers.

Karl

[Dr.K]

OK, here's your chance to shoot my whacky idea down.

http://www.kandpengineering.com/2168.shtml
stainless oil filter media inside the suppressor. selected this one for a 9mm can.

Karl

Bang!

Ah come on, you got to do better than that. paper filters are amazingly effective. The screen is similar to what you see on some small engine mufflers.

Karl

And there in lies the difference. Engine mufflers do not need a bore hole for a bullet. The material would likely work some, but you're back tracking here to cans of the late 70s and 80s with screens, brass eyelets, steel wool, and such. They will work to reduce decibels, but there are much better things now. We want "radical" not "historic"

[karl_t]

And there in lies the difference. Engine mufflers do not need a bore hole for a bullet. The material would likely work some, but you're back tracking here to cans of the late 70s and 80s with screens, brass eyelets, steel wool, and such. They will work to reduce decibels, but there are much better things now. We want "radical" not "historic"

MUCH BETTER answer. Now I know why.

Thanks

Karl

(Been lurking five years now, I'll shut up now and go back to lurking)

[Dr.K]

Come on, no need to lurk, we like some lively banter around this place. There will forever be a tad bit of hazing the new guy, but the more you interact the more you learn.