Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

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Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by LavaRed » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:21 pm

So tungsten is known for its high resistance to heat and abrasion as well as its density. Other than the excess weight, what are your thoughts about using this material in rifle suppressor baffles, in place of, say, inconel?

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by shockbottle » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:36 pm

Tungsten is also known for being brittle. Probably not the best plan.

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by LavaRed » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:37 pm

shockbottle wrote:Tungsten is also known for being brittle. Probably not the best plan.
Please elaborate :D
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by shockbottle » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:26 am

I suppose if you could get pure elemental Tungsten, it isn't all that brittle. Sourcing it is going to be fun as most of what's available as "pure" is "99.5% commercially pure" sintered material.

Most of the time tungsten-containing (or not) steel alloys are so much better overall there's not much point.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/elementfa ... olfram.htm

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by grrifles » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:26 am

All I can say is HEAVY.

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by John K » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:32 pm

Tungsten is brittle, heavy, and it makes Inconel look like Brass as far as machining goes. You'd have to mold/sinter it. And you'd run the risk of shattering a baffle if you dropped the can. I'd also think you may shatter it from the shockwave of the projectile/powder. Though I haven't looked into it that far due to the requirement of Sintering, and the weight.

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by 57fairlane » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:05 pm

If you are going to go through the trouble of sintering anything, it might as well be a cobalt-chromium alloy like stellite.

There's a reason GE has been using it for jet nozzles for years.

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by LavaRed » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:22 pm

Point taken. I'll stick to Inconel.
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by Capt. Link. » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:42 pm

57fairlane wrote:If you are going to go through the trouble of sintering anything, it might as well be a cobalt-chromium alloy like stellite.

There's a reason GE has been using it for jet nozzles for years.
I think Gunny had the idea of using stellite welding rod as a surface treatment.{hard facing} I don't know if its economical or available locally.

Different alloys can be used as bore sleeves to increase life of suppressors in FA use.The heat finds the thinnest weakest part and erodes that first and then the whole stack goes in a belch of sparkly molten metal.The good news is the bore liners normally survive. :lol:
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by John K » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:27 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
57fairlane wrote:If you are going to go through the trouble of sintering anything, it might as well be a cobalt-chromium alloy like stellite.

There's a reason GE has been using it for jet nozzles for years.
I think Gunny had the idea of using stellite welding rod as a surface treatment.{hard facing} I don't know if its economical or available locally.

Different alloys can be used as bore sleeves to increase life of suppressors in FA use.The heat finds the thinnest weakest part and erodes that first and then the whole stack goes in a belch of sparkly molten metal.The good news is the bore liners normally survive. :lol:
Wheels turning......How about automated Spray Welding the blast faces? Most likely not cost effective.....

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by Merrlin » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:54 pm

Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by hotbrass » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:23 pm

Merrlin wrote:Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin
It just takes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!

How do you perceive the manufacturing of ceramic baffles?

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by ChimeraPrecision » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:20 pm

I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
Keep calm, and suppress on

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:22 pm

hotbrass wrote:
Merrlin wrote:Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin
How do you perceive the manufacturing of ceramic baffles?
The same way ceramic armor plates are made. Moulded and baked or sintered until hard. Then ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cermet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_armor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_plate#Ceramic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arm ... ive_Insert
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by hotbrass » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:32 pm

whiterussian1974 wrote:
hotbrass wrote:
Merrlin wrote:Hi, hope you guy don't mind if I comment but, has anyone used ceramic, it's fairly light and is very heat resistant. Merrlin
How do you perceive the manufacturing of ceramic baffles?
The same way ceramic armor plates are made. Moulded and baked or sintered until hard. Then ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cermet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_armor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_plate#Ceramic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arm ... ive_Insert
Yeah, that $200 tax stamp is starting to look real cheap compared to the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ it would cost to make one baffle.

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by 57fairlane » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:05 pm

ChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
wire EDM

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by gunny50 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:35 pm

57fairlane wrote:
ChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
wire EDM
Grinding is not the hard part.
Stellite facing is not to difficult, TIG wire and rods are available.
Image
Image


link is to a page that is NOT in english but pictures explain a lot.
http://www.cnc.info.pl/topics56/szlifow ... t26544.htm
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by ChimeraPrecision » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:00 pm

57fairlane wrote:
ChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
wire EDM
That would be preferable. If you have access to such a wonderful piece of machinery
Keep calm, and suppress on

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by 57fairlane » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:20 pm

ChimeraPrecision wrote:
57fairlane wrote:
ChimeraPrecision wrote:I was going to hard face some baffles but I had no way of grinding the bore if it was occluded by the hard facing
wire EDM
That would be preferable. If you have access to such a wonderful piece of machinery
Hey now,

if you have the $$$ for DMLS baffles made of stellite you surely could afford someone to EDM them? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by Capt. Link. » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:17 pm

57fairlane wrote: if you have the $$$ for DMLS baffles made of stellite you surely could afford someone to EDM them? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
+p+
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by Wicked » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:50 pm

I've pondered the validity of cladding baffle surfaces but haven't actually done it. GTAW welding would likely put too much heat into the part causing excessive distortion. My shop uses lasers to apply Stellite #6, cobalt alloys and other wear-heat-corrosive resistant alloys to many different base metals. A SS baffle would be no problem to surface with whatever material you choose, using lasers.

This is the face of a punch that is 1/2" in diameter to give you some idea of how small we can go. The build-up is +.010" to .012" thick of M-2 tool steel.

Image

Going around a diameter is no problem either. This is a build-up around a diameter on a tapered section. We applied +.020" per side of hi-temp 321 SS to a solid copper core.

Image
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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by gunny50 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:30 pm

"Wicked"
Laser cladding is fantastic, you would not even need to grind the face as this is such a fine structure.
Just cost wise, laser will be more expensive and takes a bit longer to do than TIG

With TIG you can face the part and than machine the backside, that way distortion is not such a big problem.

I use laser welding for the Ti cans I make. Fully laser weld the core, than machine the part again, heat-shrink the tube, weld it and fill in the spots with laser welding.
Machine the outside and endproduct is super strong with no EDM needed for the bore.
Just need to start saving more to get my own laser welder with 4th axes, worked the machine a few times and boy is that a joy to work with.

However, I really do like how my own shop made TIG welding lathe with backing gas true center spindle, safes lots of time and gives fantastic welds. Great for all my non Ti cans.
For Ti its just to much heat buildup with the TIG setup, I would have to EDM the bore after that way.

Gunny

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by mysticofjesus » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:10 pm

I think most of the responses about tungsten are confusing the metal itself with tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is extremely hard, brittle, and nigh impossible to machine.

Pure elemental tungsten is around 30 HRC, you can cut it with a file. If it's pure enough, it should be ductile, not brittle. It has the second highest melting temperature of any element, next to carbon, and the highest tensile strength of any metal in pure form. Consensus is it machines kind of like angry cast iron: certainly not easy, but you can do it without anything too special. It would make excellent baffles, perhaps the best, if it wasn't OUTRAGEOUSLY HEAVY! It's something like 60% more dense than lead. There's no good way to make a reasonably light can out of it. A washer-type blast baffle is the most I would call reasonable, and it would be pretty sweet. I'd use a tungsten alloy rather than pure if I were going that route.

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by shockbottle » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:39 pm

mysticofjesus wrote:I think most of the responses about tungsten are confusing the metal itself with tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is extremely hard, brittle, and nigh impossible to machine.

Pure elemental tungsten is around 30 HRC, you can cut it with a file. If it's pure enough, it should be ductile, not brittle. It has the second highest melting temperature of any element, next to carbon, and the highest tensile strength of any metal in pure form. Consensus is it machines kind of like angry cast iron: certainly not easy, but you can do it without anything too special. It would make excellent baffles, perhaps the best, if it wasn't OUTRAGEOUSLY HEAVY! It's something like 60% more dense than lead. There's no good way to make a reasonably light can out of it. A washer-type blast baffle is the most I would call reasonable, and it would be pretty sweet. I'd use a tungsten alloy rather than pure if I were going that route.
Dunno about the others, but I meant Tungsten the metal, not the carbide.

I've machined it in various forms. It's not a lot of fun as most of what's available is sintered and chips easily (not unlike cast iron) because it breaks along the sinter lines. Real, solid non-sintered pure metal is not easy to come by in the sizes needed for baffles last I looked, despite what various online sellers claim.

Tungsten-containing alloys (ie: steel) are far better suited. If you absolutely must have Tungsten-faced baffles, sputter some on after manufacture. Or maybe just go ahead and coat the baffles with polycrystalline diamond instead. Easier to clean and more street bling factor.

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Re: Tungsten as a Baffle Material in rifle suppressors

Post by mysticofjesus » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:27 pm

shockbottle wrote:
mysticofjesus wrote:I think most of the responses about tungsten are confusing the metal itself with tungsten carbide. Tungsten carbide is extremely hard, brittle, and nigh impossible to machine.

Pure elemental tungsten is around 30 HRC, you can cut it with a file. If it's pure enough, it should be ductile, not brittle. It has the second highest melting temperature of any element, next to carbon, and the highest tensile strength of any metal in pure form. Consensus is it machines kind of like angry cast iron: certainly not easy, but you can do it without anything too special. It would make excellent baffles, perhaps the best, if it wasn't OUTRAGEOUSLY HEAVY! It's something like 60% more dense than lead. There's no good way to make a reasonably light can out of it. A washer-type blast baffle is the most I would call reasonable, and it would be pretty sweet. I'd use a tungsten alloy rather than pure if I were going that route.
Dunno about the others, but I meant Tungsten the metal, not the carbide.

I've machined it in various forms. It's not a lot of fun as most of what's available is sintered and chips easily (not unlike cast iron) because it breaks along the sinter lines. Real, solid non-sintered pure metal is not easy to come by in the sizes needed for baffles last I looked, despite what various online sellers claim.

Tungsten-containing alloys (ie: steel) are far better suited. If you absolutely must have Tungsten-faced baffles, sputter some on after manufacture. Or maybe just go ahead and coat the baffles with polycrystalline diamond instead. Easier to clean and more street bling factor.
Yeah, I know you meant the metal :) . I'm actually not familiar with any steels that contain much tungsten other than the high speed steels, which alloys are you referring to?

I've often thought about having baffles PVD coated...

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