Changing/Remaking a can.

[Variable556]

I apologize if this is a dumb question. I tried to search, but never quite found the exact answer.

If you wanted to bore a 5.56 can to 6.5mm, would it be legal (and not too hard) to do the following:

1.) Pay for 5.56 can

2.) Have 5.56 can transferred to C2 (that's willing to do the work) on form 3 because I haven't taken possession

3.) C2 "remakes" (?) can as 6.5mm and remarks it accordingly as the "new" maker and marks it and papers it as 6.5mm

4.) C2 transfers 6.5 can to my dealer of form 3

5.) I do form 4 for my new 6.5mm can.....?

Only one tax paid if C2 does the work?

Just making sure I'm not smoking crack, and that it's possible.

[doubloon]

FWIW ...

viewtopic.php?p=896772#p896772

[Capt. Link.]

You can't do it according to current BATFE regulations.
Why not have a custom suppressor built in 6.5mm and have it transferd to yourself under one stamp.
There are some very fine craftsmen in these pages with the license to do that including myself. The other option is to build it yourself and join the other craftsmen for a one off prototype.

[Dr.K]

That's a s--t ton of work and hassle, and it's illegal.

Just get a 30 cal can, and go to town..... or make a new one.

[Variable556]

I don't get why it's illegal. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't understand. I get the whole Gemtax thing. It's tax evasion in the eyes of the ATF.

I know the ATF says you can't "remake" a can as an individual, but I wouldn't be the one "remaking" it. I also understand why ATF says an 02/07 can't remake a previously owned can for an individual (that was on a form 4), because it is supposedly a new can without the individual having paid a tax for it. They say you'd need a new stamp. I get that (it's retarded of course, but I get it).

An 02/07FFL can make a can without paying a tax right? I'm pretty sure AAC and Gemtech don't pay a $200 stamp for every can they make. That's why they are a special occupational taxpayer. Why can't another 02/07 remake it? Maybe what I'm asking isn't coming across clearly---

Example:

1.) AAC makes a can. No tax is paid (or due).

2.) That can transfers to John Smith 02/07FFL on a form 3. No tax is paid (or due).

3.) John Smith 02/07 "remakes" the can as an occupational taxpayer. It was never on a form 4, there was no tax ever due, no "individual" ever owned it. How would that be tax evasion?

Am I making any sense at all? In retrospect I should have asked this in the legal section. I'm hoping not to be making squat suppressor-wise.

[srs]

Think about it this way: The entire concept of the NFA is a direct violation of the 2nd amendment and thus makes no sense at all. In addition, the ATF has interpreted various parts of the NFA in strange and often contradictory ways.

And you are trying to figure out why some part of the ATF's interpretation of the NFA sounds crazy to you?

[doubloon]

Think about it this way: ...

If this site had rep this post would have earned it.

[Capt. Link.]

AAC makes a can and a NFA number is recorded with BATFE.Then transfers it to John Smith inc.Recording it in the log.

John Smith receives the can from AAC and its recorded in his log.
John bores out the AAC can and sells it to you with the new caliber listed in his log and your form four.You pay the tax and bring the suppressor home.
Every couple of years a BATFE audit is done and the mismatched caliber comes to light.You are holding a illegal device as the new caliber requires its own paperwork. BATFE seizes the can you are out a bunch of money John is in jail but .gov is happy as the paperwork is straight.

The problem is John can't change the caliber according to law without refiling and notifying BATFE for expected tax revenue.

[Variable556]

AAC makes a can and a NFA number is recorded with BATFE.Then transfers it to John Smith inc.Recording it in the log.

John Smith receives the can from AAC and its recorded in his log.
John bores out the AAC can and sells it to you with the new caliber listed in his log and your form four.You pay the tax and bring the suppressor home.
Every couple of years a BATFE audit is done and the mismatched caliber comes to light.You are holding a illegal device as the new caliber requires its own paperwork. BATFE seizes the can you are out a bunch of money John is in jail but .gov is happy as the paperwork is straight.

The problem is John can't change the caliber according to law without refiling and notifying BATFE for expected tax revenue.

That right there is the part where I get lost in the weeds.LOL I want "John" to do exactly that. I want him to remove the can from the NFA registry as an AAC 5.56, and to register the can as newly created in 6.5mm. I'm not trying to evade tax. To me that's the least of my concern.

"John" is an 02/07 FFL just like AAC, right? Can't he "make" the can into a new caliber and refile it with ATF? Then they get their tax paid when I buy it. In that scenario there wouldn't be a tax due until I transferred the can to me.

And thanks for you guy's patience with my questions. It's maddening trying to put logic to the ATF's total lack of it in their rulings.

I've long understood (but totally abhor) ATF's Gemtax stance. I.E. An individual owns a tax paid suppressor, and then has another 02/07 modify it. Then ATF asserts that the material modification creates a "new" can, and therefor the end recipient owes a tax to take possession of the "new" can.

I was just trying to logically think that since no end user ever owned the first can in my scenario (AAC can transfers directly to "John Smith 02/07 Inc."), the tax was irrelevant between SOTs, because there was never a tax due on the first can. Then when the second SOT modded the can, they in essence "created" a new can (according to ATF).

That just seems to me like ATF kind of needs challenged on that one if that isn't the case.

Ignore all of the following if it is annoying to anyone. That's not my intent.------

Scenarios:

1.) ABC Suppressor Company sells a can to XYZ Suppressor Company. Both are SOT's, so no tax is due, and all is legal.

2.) ABC Suppressor Company sells a can to XYZ Suppressor Company, and XYZ Suppressor Company decides they want to destroy the can (for literally any reason). They destroy it, it's removed from the NFA. Both are SOT's, so no tax is due, and all is legal still.


Scenario #3 is up next, but here's the ATF text I'm questioning first. It's not a repair per se, but it is an alteration, so they'd put it in the same category I guess.

http://www.atf.gov/content/may-repair-c ... r-silencer

"May a repair change the dimensions or caliber of a silencer?

If alterations to a silencer would increase the overall length or change the diameter or caliber of a silencer, this is the making of a new silencer, as opposed to a repair. The new silencer must be registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and the GCA. "

3.) a. ABC Suppressor Company sells a 5.56 can to XYZ Suppressor Company. Both are SOT's, so no tax is due.

b. XYZ alters the 5.56 can to a larger caliber (6.5 or whatever). The above linked ATF ruling says nothing about them NOT being able to do that. It DOES say that doing it is "the making of a new silencer". XYZ Suppressor Company is an SOT. They make new cans as their job.

c. The ATF ruling states: "The new silencer must be registered and transferred in accordance with the NFA and the GCA." Cool, XYZ already does that with every can they make.

d. The old can no longer exists. XYZ Suppressor Company notifies ATF of the change, and the old ABC 5.56 can is removed from the NFA registry. The new XYZ 6.5 can is entered into the registry like any other can XYZ would make from scratch.

e. XYZ is an SOT, so they don't owe any tax for "creating" a can. That's why they are an SOT to begin with.

f. The non-SOT end-user who receives the new "XYZ Suppressor Company 6.5 can" obviously does owe a $200 tax on their new 6.5 can......


Maybe I'm on crack, but I can't find anything in writing from ATF that contradicts scenario #3. Any links?

I think everybody always looks at it from the Gemtax angle, and immediately thinks of a can that is already (non-SOT) owned on a form 4 with a $200 tax having been paid. Having it significantly altered (according to ATF) creates a new can, and then the end user must pay another tax and do another transfer to receive his new can. Sure, from ATF's perspective, his old can was effectively destroyed and removed from the registry at the time his "new" can was created. He can't own that "new" can without a new stamp. That's not what I'm talking about in scenario #3 above though....

[srs]

Have an 02/07 build you a custom silencer and be done with it. No legal issues there.

I don't think any of us here have the money (lawyers) or the time (more money) to test the ATF in court. And even if someone were to win on your #3 scenario, it still would not fix the problem.

[McLarenross]

Thought.. 07/02 bores out the ID of the baffles to pass 6.5mm bullets. It still passes .224" bullets. Its now just an over bored 5.56 can and needs no annotations, remarking, changes to the registry, etc...

[Kanook]

If it were me asking this question, I would want the answer from the people that would be prosecuting me or not.

Do it the old fashion way, write a letter to the BATF with your question, if the answer is the way you want it then go ahead and proceed but keep the copy from BATF saying it's legal. At least that way you have a little fight.

If they say it's a no-go, then buy a 6.5 can.

[Capt. Link.]

The problem is John can't change the caliber according to law without refiling and notifying BATFE for expected tax revenue.

That right there is the part where I get lost in the weeds.LOL I want "John" to do exactly that. I want him to remove the can from the NFA registry as an AAC 5.56, and to register the can as newly created in 6.5mm. I'm not trying to evade tax. To me that's the least of my concern.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Catch - 22
John removes the 5.56 can made by company A from the registry right.
BATFE wants it confirmed as destroyed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"John" is an 02/07 FFL just like AAC, right? Can't he "make" the can into a new caliber and refile it with ATF?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No John can't because it was removed from NFA registry and destroyed you have nothing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You work and at the end of the week you expect to get paid the hours worked right.
Every time a new NFA item is made a tax is expected just like your hours of labor its how they get paid.

Your Boss tells you that half of the items you made were destroyed in a fire before they were sold so he only owes you half pay.If you accept this concept then your argument makes perfect sense.

[Bendersquint]

In order for the can to be removed from the registry it must be destroyed and documented as destroyed witht he NFA branch.

This makes your entire plan fall apart.

Why not either have a custom can built for your or buy one that fits your needs?

[Kanook]

2.5.1 Removal of machineguns and silencers from the scope of the NFA. Machineguns are defined
to include the receiver of a machinegun and the definition of silencer includes each component of a

27 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16)
28 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) 22
silencer. Therefore, to remove these weapons from the provisions of the NFA, the receiver of a
machinegun or all the components of a silencer must be destroyed.
The preferred method for destroying a machinegun receiver is to completely sever the receiver in
specified locations by means of a cutting torch that displaces at least one-quarter inch of material at each
cut location. ATF has published rulings concerning the preferred destruction of specific machineguns.29
A machinegun receiver may also be properly destroyed by means of saw cutting and disposing of certain
removed portions of the receiver. To ensure that the proposed saw cutting of a particular machinegun
receiver is acceptable, FTB should be contacted for guidance and approval of any alternative destruction
proposal. Note: a machinegun receiver that is not properly destroyed may still be classified as a
machinegun, particularly in instances where the improperly destroyed receiver is possessed in
conjunction with other component parts for the weapon.
A silencer may be destroyed by completely severing each component by means of a cutting torch that
has a tip of sufficient size to displace at least one-quarter inch of material at each cut location.
Concerning the outer tube(s) of a silencer, these components may be destroyed by crushing them flat in
lieu of cutting with a torch.
Anyone interested in destroying an NFA weapon by means other than described above should contact
FTB to discuss possible alternatives.

[Variable556]

If it were me asking this question, I would want the answer from the people that would be prosecuting me or not.

Do it the old fashion way, write a letter to the BATF with your question, if the answer is the way you want it then go ahead and proceed but keep the copy from BATF saying it's legal. At least that way you have a little fight.

If they say it's a no-go, then buy a 6.5 can.

I'd like to, but I've long dreaded asking them anything based on what it could precipitate for the NFA community just by poking the bear.

It seems to be a catch-22 for sure.

1.) You can alter a can by changing it's caliber, and then you owe a tax on the new can.
2.) You can't alter a can by changing it's caliber, because it becomes a new can, and you can't alter an old can because it has to be destroyed instead.

That's about as messed up as it could get.

I'd write a letter, but then with my luck they'd issue a new (even more screwed up) ruling and then I'd be the persona non-grata of the entire NFA world...

[Variable556]

Thought.. 07/02 bores out the ID of the baffles to pass 6.5mm bullets. It still passes .224" bullets. Its now just an over bored 5.56 can and needs no annotations, remarking, changes to the registry, etc...

If I were "obsessively worried" about getting baffle strikes with a 5.56 can on a 5.56 platform, and I had my bore enlarged by .04", would that then be illegal too?

[Variable556]

In order for the can to be removed from the registry it must be destroyed and documented as destroyed witht he NFA branch.

This makes your entire plan fall apart.

Why not either have a custom can built for your or buy one that fits your needs?

I'd buy a 6.5 can that fits my needs, but so far as I can find, one doesn't exist. I may have to get a custom one made. I just hate going away from what I know/trust.

The whole reason I don't just get another .30 cal can is I can't find what I actually want. I'm in the process of building a very light (circa 4.25 to 4.5 pound) 6.5 Grendel with a 12.5" barrel. I want to keep it as light and short as possible, but I don't want a purely Ti can (like a Templar Ark30 or Nemesis30) either. I'd love to try one, but I don't want a can that sparks. Just about every Ti suppressor (that I can find a video of) being used on a short barrel in dark lighting emits significant white sparks.

The AAC Ranger 3 isn't out yet, but I believe it actually will come out this year (call me "Linus in the pumpkin patch"LOL). I have faith up front it'll be quiet enough, I know it'll be short enough, and (for an inconel can) it'll be almost light enough. I know it won't spark either. That'd be the best compromise I can find in a factory can that I'd trust.

Everything else I look at either:

1.) Is too long. I want 7" or shorter if it could be reasonably quiet.
2.) Is too heavy. I want circa 14oz. or less. 10-12oz. would be ideal.
3.) Probably emits sparks if it's Ti. I don't want any bright white sparkler effect at night.

I thought my fallback plan might be to use a chopped down (it seems it is legal to shorten a can without changing it's caliber) Silencerco Harvester, but I now read that Silencerco is only kosher with the Harvester on a 5.56 barrel as short as 16". That means a 12.5" Grendel would probably significantly shorten the life of a Harvester....


ETA: P.S.-- I want to thank all of you guys for all the answers you've given. I'm not always the sharpest tool in the silencer shed, and you've been a big help.

[Bendersquint]

Thought.. 07/02 bores out the ID of the baffles to pass 6.5mm bullets. It still passes .224" bullets. Its now just an over bored 5.56 can and needs no annotations, remarking, changes to the registry, etc...

If I were "obsessively worried" about getting baffle strikes with a 5.56 can on a 5.56 platform, and I had my bore enlarged by .04", would that then be illegal too?

Yes it would be illegal.

If its a commercial can, it would have to be made that way or its considered changing caliber.

[Bendersquint]

In order for the can to be removed from the registry it must be destroyed and documented as destroyed witht he NFA branch.

This makes your entire plan fall apart.

Why not either have a custom can built for your or buy one that fits your needs?

I'd buy a 6.5 can that fits my needs, but so far as I can find, one doesn't exist. I may have to get a custom one made. I just hate going away from what I know/trust.

The whole reason I don't just get another .30 cal can is I can't find what I actually want. I'm in the process of building a very light (circa 4.25 to 4.5 pound) 6.5 Grendel with a 12.5" barrel. I want to keep it as light and short as possible, but I don't want a purely Ti can (like a Templar Ark30 or Nemesis30) either. I'd love to try one, but I don't want a can that sparks. Just about every Ti suppressor (that I can find a video of) being used on a short barrel in dark lighting emits significant white sparks.

The AAC Ranger 3 isn't out yet, but I believe it actually will come out this year (call me "Linus in the pumpkin patch"LOL). I have faith up front it'll be quiet enough, I know it'll be short enough, and (for an inconel can) it'll be almost light enough. I know it won't spark either. That'd be the best compromise I can find in a factory can that I'd trust.

Everything else I look at either:

1.) Is too long. I want 7" or shorter if it could be reasonably quiet.
2.) Is too heavy. I want circa 14oz. or less. 10-12oz. would be ideal.
3.) Probably emits sparks if it's Ti. I don't want any bright white sparkler effect at night.

I thought my fallback plan might be to use a chopped down (it seems it is legal to shorten a can without changing it's caliber) Silencerco Harvester, but I now read that Silencerco is only kosher with the Harvester on a 5.56 barrel as short as 16". That means a 12.5" Grendel would probably significantly shorten the life of a Harvester....


ETA: P.S.-- I want to thank all of you guys for all the answers you've given. I'm not always the sharpest tool in the silencer shed, and you've been a big help.

Our ti cans don't spark and even though a majority are custom they don't carry custom price tags like most think. I also wouldn't be prejudice based on interweb videos. We had a Ti can that sparked like crazy but as the shooter I never saw it spark, even with NVG. To the side was a different story, we changed the baffle stack and the sparks went away.

My M42000(which uses the same stack as a Ranger3) sparks just about every shot.

It is only legal to shorten a silencer enough to allow for rethreading, but then again the Harvester is fully welded, you aren't going to be shortening that anytime soon without damaging the can.

A 12.5 Grendel would be dangerous, its not about lifespan its about safety.

[Capt. Link.]

Thought.. 07/02 bores out the ID of the baffles to pass 6.5mm bullets. It still passes .224" bullets. Its now just an over bored 5.56 can and needs no annotations, remarking, changes to the registry, etc...

If I were "obsessively worried" about getting baffle strikes with a 5.56 can on a 5.56 platform, and I had my bore enlarged by .04", would that then be illegal too?

You can bore the can out to any size you wish but once you attach a larger than registered weapon to it you have broken the intent of the law and thus illegal.

The laws are very complex today.They used to be simple before people kept trying to go around them.

[Coug91]

How about just buying a 30 cal can? then you can use it for anything smaller than 30? Like 6.5mm and 556.