SBR question

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, bakerjw

User avatar
CMV
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:31 pm
Location: NC

SBR question

Post by CMV »

A little OT, but I figured you guys would know. Doing a form1 efile for a SBR. I don't really want to make one right away - not something I really having a burning desire to own right now, but since I had the site working submitting others, I did this too. Anyway, I have no specific length in mind. Caliber either for that matter, but it will be an AR. On the form I used 5.56mm for cal & 9" for barrel length. I uploaded the following as an attachment:

Addition to item 4
Additional barrel and caliber configurations:
9mm caliber, 7” barrel length
9mm caliber, 9” barrel length
9mm caliber, 12” barrel length
5.56mm caliber, 7” length
5.56mm caliber, 12” length
.30 caliber, 7” length
.30 caliber, 9” length
.30 caliber, 12” length

Is that correct? That way I can do a 9mm or 300 BLK in short, med, or long lengths.

If that's not correct, when it gets kicked back, what's the right way to do it?
--------------------------------------

"Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes"
"This board is currently disabled"
These things make me :(
User avatar
RPM509
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 8:54 pm
Location: 66048

Re: SBR question

Post by RPM509 »

Just one caliber and one barrel length is needed, anymore and you run the risk of confusing the ATF.
Confusing the ATF usually results in a denial.

An SBR is a go/no-go proposition, the ATF only cares that the barrel length is less than 16"
or OAL < whatever it is. ON your form, put one caliber you intend to build with one barrel length.
AFTER you get your stamp, if you decide to deviate caliber or barrel length as a permanent change, you can notify
the ATF in writing.
"a butt tuba" - Palindrome
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: SBR question

Post by Bendersquint »

RPM509 wrote:Just one caliber and one barrel length is needed, anymore and you run the risk of confusing the ATF.
Confusing the ATF usually results in a denial.

An SBR is a go/no-go proposition, the ATF only cares that the barrel length is less than 16"
or OAL < whatever it is. ON your form, put one caliber you intend to build with one barrel length.
AFTER you get your stamp, if you decide to deviate caliber or barrel length as a permanent change, you can notify
the ATF in writing.
Exactly, just give them one cal and one length.

If it changes simply amend your form, not need to make it difficult.
User avatar
CMV
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:31 pm
Location: NC

Re: SBR question

Post by CMV »

What if I want to go back and forth between 2 uppers? Say a .223 and 300 blk for example. Is that normal or do people generally dedicate 2 lowers and have 2 SBRs?

Don't know since I never had one. Trying to 'future proof' it upfront and take advantage of the reported short eform turnaround time.

Or do you just list the shortest barrel and OAL you'd have and its ok as long as you're over that length? 7" barrel, 22" OAL on form and if you put a 12" barrel on later its no big deal since you're already ok for shorter?

I don't really see a good reason to do a .223, but a short 9mm or 300 BLK AR could be practical and fun suppressed toys
--------------------------------------

"Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes"
"This board is currently disabled"
These things make me :(
User avatar
RPM509
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 8:54 pm
Location: 66048

Re: SBR question

Post by RPM509 »

You can swap back and forth all day long with many uppers on a registered/stamped lower.
The only thing the ATF wants to be appraised of, is if you make a permanent change.

I have a couple stamped AR lowers that I freely swap various lengthed uppers on.

Here is something to consider as well. If you have a SBR-stamped lower and you temporarily
place a >16" barrelled upper on it, it is not an SBR until you place a short (<16") barrel back on it.
"a butt tuba" - Palindrome
srs
Silent Operator
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:51 pm
Location: VA

Re: SBR question

Post by srs »

Also, DO NOT have any non-SBR lowers that do not have an upper attached to them anywhere. If you have ANY unattached short barreled or pistol uppers and ANY non-SBR or non-Pistol lowers without uppers built; you could be charged with constructive possession.

Just an FYI if you were not aware. It is kind of like having extra suppressor parts...
User avatar
renegade
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4547
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:19 am
Location: Texas

Re: SBR question

Post by renegade »

As others said, delete all that and KISS.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: SBR question

Post by Bendersquint »

srs wrote: Just an FYI if you were not aware. It is kind of like having extra suppressor parts...
Not it isn't.
srs
Silent Operator
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:51 pm
Location: VA

Re: SBR question

Post by srs »

Bendersquint wrote:
srs wrote: Just an FYI if you were not aware. It is kind of like having extra suppressor parts...
Not it isn't.
Well, in that it is a stupid rule that isn't based on common sense and should not exist...
User avatar
CMV
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:31 pm
Location: NC

Re: SBR question

Post by CMV »

I'm thinking he meant that in a "that's an internet gunboard myth" kind of way.

Lots of people have both AR rifles & pistols and could easily have more uppers than lowers of either type. I know of - either personally or from actual documented cases - people who have been prosecuted for NFA stuff & every one was machineguns. I'm not saying no one has even been prosecuted for having an unregistered SBR, just that I've never seen documented proof that someone was prosecuted for owning a pistol upper, a rifle lower, and was charged for owning both but without evidence they were mated.

I currently own 0 pistol/short barreled uppers or barrels. But I have complete ARs, complete lowers, stripped lowers, unmilled 80% lowers, parts kits, spare parts, etc, etc. I have a LOT of ARs. I find it hard to believe that if I decided to do a pistol build, I'd immediately be a felon for ordering the upper before assembling the lower (with the magical get-out-of-jail-free pistol buffer tube). Would that mean every time I disassembled the AR pistol to clean it, I'd be a felon? Seems kind of far fetched to me.

I've read that same thing over & over on the interwebs, but it seems like people just repeating what they've read somewhere else. Have never seen someone say "refer to US v Jones when the 4th circuit court found John Jones guilty for merely possessing an unmated upper & lower in 2007". Not saying it hasn't happened or can't happen, just that I've never seen a reference for these claims. But say illegal MG & everyone has Olofson at the tip of their tongue (or finger as it may be).
--------------------------------------

"Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes"
"This board is currently disabled"
These things make me :(
User avatar
RPM509
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 8:54 pm
Location: 66048

Re: SBR question

Post by RPM509 »

Bender, CMV and I have a similar understanding of the NFA rules in regards to extra parts for AR's.

I have all sorts of parts in various stages of assembly for AR's in my house and I am not breaking any laws
either literally or by intent. Pistol parts, rifle parts, SBR parts. I DON'T put my short uppers on un-stamped lowers, simple as that.
"a butt tuba" - Palindrome
User avatar
renegade
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4547
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:19 am
Location: Texas

Re: SBR question

Post by renegade »

CMV wrote: Have never seen someone say "refer to US v Jones when the 4th circuit court found John Jones guilty for merely possessing an unmated upper & lower in 2007". Not saying it hasn't happened or can't happen, just that I've never seen a reference for these claims.
I post references all the time. The Godfather of all references is usually Thompson Center Arms. While it is a SBR case and not a MG, case it lays the groundwork.

All other references can usually be found on Bardwells site.
User avatar
CMV
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:31 pm
Location: NC

Re: SBR question

Post by CMV »

renegade wrote:
CMV wrote: Have never seen someone say "refer to US v Jones when the 4th circuit court found John Jones guilty for merely possessing an unmated upper & lower in 2007". Not saying it hasn't happened or can't happen, just that I've never seen a reference for these claims.
I post references all the time. The Godfather of all references is usually Thompson Center Arms. While it is a SBR case and not a MG, case it lays the groundwork.

All other references can usually be found on Bardwells site.
So you're saying you have seen documentation of prosecution/conviction for an individual merely possessing an AR lower and short barreled upper, having never mated the two? Not being argumentative - I've just never seen it & always put the "short upper & non SBR lower in proximity = felony" in the same category as "knockdown power".

Doesn't US v T-C support that having both in proximity but not assembled in an illegal configuration is oK? As long as you don't put the short barrel and stock on the gun (w/o it being a registered SBR) you're ok. May infer you would need a pistol or stripped lower around as well? If ALL you have was an AR rifle and a pistol upper, I could see following that to the conclusion that the only useful thing you could do with that upper is place it on the only receiver you have.

But to get back on topic......

I do the stamp for whatever - let's say a 7" barrel, 5.56mm caliber, & 22" OAL. As long as I stay with that as the 'permanent' configuration, temporary swaps of something like a 9" 9mm or 11" 300BLK upper are ok? But if I decide I don't want the 7" 5.56 anymore & sell that upper, I need to amend to change the 'permanent configuration' to the upper I want to use primarily at that point?
--------------------------------------

"Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes"
"This board is currently disabled"
These things make me :(
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: SBR question

Post by Bendersquint »

CMV wrote: But to get back on topic......

I do the stamp for whatever - let's say a 7" barrel, 5.56mm caliber, & 22" OAL. As long as I stay with that as the 'permanent' configuration, temporary swaps of something like a 9" 9mm or 11" 300BLK upper are ok? But if I decide I don't want the 7" 5.56 anymore & sell that upper, I need to amend to change the 'permanent configuration' to the upper I want to use primarily at that point?
Yes, you are correct.
edcurtis
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:53 am

Re: SBR question

Post by edcurtis »

CMV wrote:
I do the stamp for whatever - let's say a 7" barrel, 5.56mm caliber, & 22" OAL. As long as I stay with that as the 'permanent' configuration, temporary swaps of something like a 9" 9mm or 11" 300BLK upper are ok? But if I decide I don't want the 7" 5.56 anymore & sell that upper, I need to amend to change the 'permanent configuration' to the upper I want to use primarily at that point?

Yep, but if I was going a 9mm, I'd go with a shorter barrel...4.5-5"....oh wait... that's what I did. :lol:
User avatar
renegade
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4547
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:19 am
Location: Texas

Re: SBR question

Post by renegade »

CMV wrote: So you're saying you have seen documentation of prosecution/conviction for an individual merely possessing an AR lower and short barreled upper, having never mated the two?
Yes it is on Bardwells Site.
CMV wrote: Doesn't US v T-C support that having both in proximity but not assembled in an illegal configuration is oK? As long as you don't put the short barrel and stock on the gun (w/o it being a registered SBR) you're ok.
No. TC requires a possible lawful configuration. "AR lower and short barreled upper" as you mentioned above can only be legally assembled into an SBR.
User avatar
CMV
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:31 pm
Location: NC

Re: SBR question

Post by CMV »

Got the approval today. Sandy Snook was the examiner and for the silencer eform I got back a few days ago too. She left a message asking about the attachment I submitted for the different calibers and lengths.

VERY nice and helpful person. Talked to her this morning and she asked if I had all these different barrels now or if they were for planned future configurations. Since I don't have them now she disregarded the attachment and sent the approval immediately. She said I can later change the configuration to different barrel lengths/calibers and to just send them a letter or email informing them of the changes when I make them. She said an initial form1 needs to have only 1 configuation but then could be modified to all those configurations in the future if I wish.

So it sounds like what you guys said was pretty much spot on. Submit the form1 for your intended build configuration and later change it whatever you want, but let them know what changes you make.
--------------------------------------

"Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes"
"This board is currently disabled"
These things make me :(
sendit
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: SBR Markings

Post by sendit »

My question is not exactly on topic but closely related.
When I create an SBR from my purchased stripped lower marked cal-multi and the manufacturers logo, what information/markings am I required to add?
User avatar
renegade
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4547
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:19 am
Location: Texas

Re: SBR Markings

Post by renegade »

sendit wrote:My question is not exactly on topic but closely related.
When I create an SBR from my purchased stripped lower marked cal-multi and the manufacturers logo, what information/markings am I required to add?
A Title II firearm must have, name/city/state of MFG, caliber, SN. Model is optional.
sendit
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: SBR Markings

Post by sendit »

renegade wrote:
sendit wrote:My question is not exactly on topic but closely related.
When I create an SBR from my purchased stripped lower marked cal-multi and the manufacturers logo, what information/markings am I required to add?
A Title II firearm must have, name/city/state of MFG, caliber, SN. Model is optional.
So if I "must" put a specific cal marking on the lower say .30 for my blackout I will still be legal to run a 5.56 upper on it, should I choose to build one later?
User avatar
renegade
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4547
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:19 am
Location: Texas

Re: SBR Markings

Post by renegade »

sendit wrote:
renegade wrote:
sendit wrote:My question is not exactly on topic but closely related.
When I create an SBR from my purchased stripped lower marked cal-multi and the manufacturers logo, what information/markings am I required to add?
A Title II firearm must have, name/city/state of MFG, caliber, SN. Model is optional.
So if I "must" put a specific cal marking on the lower say .30 for my blackout I will still be legal to run a 5.56 upper on it, should I choose to build one later?
Only the SN has to go on the lower. The other stuff can go on the BBL. Most BBLs have cal markings, so buy a BBL that has the cal on it.
User avatar
RPM509
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 8:54 pm
Location: 66048

Re: SBR Markings

Post by RPM509 »

sendit wrote:
renegade wrote:
sendit wrote:My question is not exactly on topic but closely related.
When I create an SBR from my purchased stripped lower marked cal-multi and the manufacturers logo, what information/markings am I required to add?
A Title II firearm must have, name/city/state of MFG, caliber, SN. Model is optional.
So if I "must" put a specific cal marking on the lower say .30 for my blackout I will still be legal to run a 5.56 upper on it, should I choose to build one later?
Yes.

As an example. My Form 1 SBR was approved as a 5.56 cal on the form. I run, 300 Blackout and 9mm uppers on it all the time. All of my lowers say "Multi" as the caliber. All my barrels have actual chambered caliber. All are legal. The only thing I had properly engraved on my lowers were my name, city and state where I 'made' them.
"a butt tuba" - Palindrome
sendit
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: SBR question

Post by sendit »

Thanks to all for your replies.

So I will only physically add my name, address, and state to the lower.
The cal markings on the barrel will cover that.
And the existing serial # on the stripped lower will be what I put on the form one.
sendit
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: SBR question

Post by sendit »

Also: I will have to specify a cal on my form 1 but it will not restrict me from running others, and I will only have to amend my form 1 if I were to sell the upper of the specified cal and intend to mostly run another?
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: SBR question

Post by Bendersquint »

sendit wrote:Also: I will have to specify a cal on my form 1 but it will not restrict me from running others, and I will only have to amend my form 1 if I were to sell the upper of the specified cal and intend to mostly run another?
Correct.

If you sell the upper from the registered configuration you will need to amend your Form1 for the SBR upper that you know will have as your "primary".

Anytime you can not return an SBR/SBS to its registered configuration the ATF must be notified.
Post Reply