.22 keyholing at 3 yards.. problems found

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, bakerjw

User avatar
sub-sonic
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 pm
Location: pacific ocean

.22 keyholing at 3 yards.. problems found

Post by sub-sonic » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:09 pm

I have had this 22 silencer & pistol finished for a long time and its always shot a 4" group at 25 yards. I have put thousands of rounds through it and today while testing different brands of ammo I find that Remington yellow jackets keyholed at 3 yards. so I checked for baffle strikes and found none. Then I tried the federal bulk pack stuff I have been using for years and it keyholes at 3 yards too. so I put the target out at 12 yards and get clean holes but crappy group size from both brands of ammo
any thoughts on the reason why

ruger mk1 with a 3.75" barrel
form 1 can with cones

Image

Image
Last edited by sub-sonic on Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.

User avatar
HK91
Silent Operator
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:52 pm
Location: NE

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by HK91 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:35 pm

Just a thought, have you looked at the muzzle crown closely? Could there be an accumulation of lead and powder fouling that has got blasted back at the muzzle and built up, possibly causing the bullet to start to yaw? With the tumbling at 3 yards I would think you would have had a baffle strike by now.

HK91

a_canadian
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1129
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:09 pm

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by a_canadian » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:58 pm

Indeed, especially if your cone bore size is 0.30" or larger, at that moderate length for the suppressor, it's possible the bullets are beginning their yaw yet not quite striking baffles before they leave the end cap. If the bore were much tighter than that then I'd suspect an undetected baffle strike, the metal simply standing up to the grazing impact and not leaving significant traces for you to see on inspection.

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by doubloon » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:16 pm

Maybe the barrel is leaded up a little? The yellow jackets may have left a few small shavings of lead in the barrel that might be tough to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

User avatar
sub-sonic
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 pm
Location: pacific ocean

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by sub-sonic » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:38 am

bore is .250
crown is good
parts were cleaned aprox 100 rounds ago
from crown to end cap is aprox 8" ( guestimation. will measure it tonight)
I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.

User avatar
RPM509
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 9:54 pm
Location: 66048

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by RPM509 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:07 am

If you have any pin gauges, check the ID of your barrel, excessive barrel wear?
"a butt tuba" - Palindrome

User avatar
Capt. Link.
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2526
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:05 pm
Location: USA.

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:28 am

sub-sonic wrote:I have had this 22 silencer & pistol finished for a long time and its always shot a 4" group at 25 yards. I have put thousands of rounds through it and today while testing different brands of ammo I find that Remington yellow jackets keyholed at 3 yards. so I checked for baffle strikes and found none. Then I tried the federal bulk pack stuff I have been using for years and it keyholes at 3 yards too. so I put the target out at 12 yards and get clean holes but crappy group size from both brands of ammo
any thoughts on the reason why

ruger mk1 with a 3.75" barrel
form 1 can with cones
A 4.00" group at 25 yards is awful mine will shoot a dime sized one without a scope.You had a bullet strike from the beginning and the high powered round made it worse.Can you remove the suppressor that should confirm it.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!

Historian
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by Historian » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:03 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
sub-sonic wrote:I have had this 22 silencer & pistol finished for a long time and its always shot a 4" group at 25 yards. I have put thousands of rounds through it and today while testing different brands of ammo I find that Remington yellow jackets keyholed at 3 yards. so I checked for baffle strikes and found none. Then I tried the federal bulk pack stuff I have been using for years and it keyholes at 3 yards too. so I put the target out at 12 yards and get clean holes but crappy group size from both brands of ammo
any thoughts on the reason why

ruger mk1 with a 3.75" barrel
form 1 can with cones
A 4.00" group at 25 yards is awful mine will shoot a dime sized one.I'm not bragging my eyes suck from age.You had a bullet strike early on and the high powered round made it worse.
PS: a close miss acts the same as a strike.
Good Captain, I second your observation. With my Ray Brandes Bully Barrel on the S&W 41
I can consistently get a tight group with a rest at 50 yards, CCI SV, Red Dot 1 MOA sight:
e.g., see the 50 yard image in

<< http://www.ray-vin.com/tech/accuracy/accuracy.htm >>

Parallel set up to images gentleman showed in

<< http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... %2B+barrel >>

User avatar
sub-sonic
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 pm
Location: pacific ocean

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by sub-sonic » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:29 pm

looks like I have a serious problem
did more testing today and it shoots the same without the silencer :shock:

I never really tried this gun for groups before I did all the work to it.
I think I might need a new barrel
all these brands keyhole at 3 yards with out the silencer
C.I.L
T22
remington yellow jacket
wildcat
American eagle
Federal 550
remington 22subsonic

I had a 5 rounds of old winchester rabbit ammo and they did not keyhole and the group was 1" :?:
I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.

Hard_ware
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:56 pm
Location: South South Texas

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by Hard_ware » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:11 pm

Bad barrel, seems like it is worn out.
NRA Life Member

Tony M.
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:42 am
Location: FL

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by Tony M. » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:10 am

It sounds a lot like a bad crown to me. A local smith might be able to recrown the barrel for a small fee.

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by doubloon » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:29 am

sub-sonic wrote:...
I had a 5 rounds of old winchester rabbit ammo and they did not keyhole and the group was 1" :?:
Winchester rabbit or dynapoints claim to be copper "plated".

I've never tried any or taken any apart so I don't know if they're actually "plated" or just "dusted" like most 22lr bullets.

If they're actually "plated" then the copper skin might be suffering slightly less deformation from any minor obstructions in the barrel than the softer lead bullets or if the barrel is truly worn out as has been suggested they might be holding on to what's left of the lands and grooves a little tighter than the softer lead.

Just a guess, let a smith you trust look at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

User avatar
Capt. Link.
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2526
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:05 pm
Location: USA.

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:02 am

Tony M. wrote:It sounds a lot like a bad crown to me. A local smith might be able to recrown the barrel for a small fee.
+1
I doubt you wore it out.Just using a suppressor will damage the crown.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!

User avatar
MCKNBRD
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:19 pm

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by MCKNBRD » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:05 am

I'm not convinced it is a bad crown. I'd go with a heavily leaded barrel. Its a PITA to deal with, but there are several 'how-tos' on getting lead out of a barrel. Disassemble it, look at the rifling (with a good light). If it isn't crisp and easy to see the lands/grooves, I'd say you've shot enough in that barrel to gunk it up. Especially on a Mark I...that thing is old enough to develop that kind of problem.

Clean it really good and check it again. I bet (and hope!) that is the issue.

BTW, 'copper plated' in .22LR means little more than 'copper painted'. I've never seen FMJ .22LR...copper washed/copper coated, yes...but no jacket.

Byrdman

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by doubloon » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:34 am

The only stuff I've ever seen with anything that could be called an actual jacket was a unicorn brand sold in Australia or NZ I think. But the link doesn't work anymore http://www.rimfireuniverse.com

One picture left on the interwebs
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pi ... 987195.jpg

I only mentioned the copper on the Dynapoints because of drawings I found on the interwebs which displayed an ambitious layer of copper.
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimage ... t%20LR.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

User avatar
Capt. Link.
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2526
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:05 pm
Location: USA.

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:27 am

This being a MK-1 it is possible that the chamber has been damaged by the stinger round.The stinger case is longer and the MK-1 most likely had a tighter chamber than offered today.
While I have never seen lead build up that will adversely effect accuracy to that point a long soak time in CLP or Kroil will allow lead removal with a tight patch.PM sent
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!

User avatar
CMV
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 734
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:31 pm
Location: NC

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by CMV » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:54 pm

IDK - if your maintenance routine is squirting with gunscrubber & running patches until they're white, copper or lead fouling could be an issue. If a gun goes from good to bad overnight with no obvious damage fouling would be a good place to start. Doesn't cost much to find out. Wipeout, Bore Tech, KG - they all make really good solvents. Lather, rinse, repeat & see how it shoots.
--------------------------------------

"Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes"
"This board is currently disabled"
These things make me :(

User avatar
sub-sonic
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 pm
Location: pacific ocean

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by sub-sonic » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:18 pm

so I spent some time cleaning the barrel out. I freshened up the crown. I took it out and tested it again and got the same results.
I can see some very shallow rifling in the barrel but its almost smooth.
so it off to find a bit of barrel to fix this with. I have some 16 twist barrels here but I might try and find something with a faster twist if there is such a thing for 22 rimfire. I only need 5" long and 5/8" round
I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by doubloon » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:28 pm

Wow, must be a pretty old barrel or seen a lot of wear. Not being a smith I've only heard about one or two worn out rimfire barrels before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

nhoj_yelbom
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:18 am

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by nhoj_yelbom » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:56 pm

crazy if its actually worn out, im betting lead buildup also. i have the volquartsen llv upper, its very nice if

User avatar
CMV
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 734
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:31 pm
Location: NC

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by CMV » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:54 pm

Might want to see if you have a buddy with a borescope. I don't think we humans live long enough to shoot out a .22 barrel.

What did you clean it with? A lot of general bore solvents aren't great with bad lead or copper fouling.

I used to use CLP exclusively. All I used in the Army & figured if it was good enough for their guns, it was good enough for mine. I used to be OCD about gun cleaning - if it got shot, it got cleaned that night. I've relaxed that a bit (because too many other things to do than clean guns) & let most guns go about 400 rds between cleanings now. Anyway, my Kimber went from being a really good shooter to groups that were opening way up. Cleaning with CLP as I'd always done but still ended up badly copper fouled. Took several long soaks with Gunslick foaming bore cleaner (not the best, but OK for copper fouling) to get it under control. So now, every so often I use a good copper solvent (and a good lead solvent for guns that shoot lead) to keep it under control.

If you're using Hoppe's #9 or something similar, it's a LOT of work to get lead fouling taken care of. It's just not good at it. Soak it overnight or a couple days in Kroil, run a bore brush thru a few times, patch it w/ a jag. Might have to do that a 2nd time, but a good penetrating oil can help loosen it & make the job easier. The Bore Tech 22 solvent is pretty good & will prevent it from happening again if used every 400 rds or so. Some people say the USGI M16 cleaning kit bore bush is slightly oversize and stiffer so it works better for fouling removal.
--------------------------------------

"Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes"
"This board is currently disabled"
These things make me :(

User avatar
sub-sonic
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 pm
Location: pacific ocean

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by sub-sonic » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:05 pm

I have cleaned it 3 times with hoppe's #9 since I have had it. the rest of the time I just patch it out with rem-oil.
I have fed 16 boxes of federal bulk pack ammo through it and several bulk packs of other brands and assorted 50 count boxes for testing.
I guess I need to clean it better than I have been doing.


did some more testing and found its the scope thats causing the big groups.
using the laser I get sub inch groups at 15 no matter what ammo but using the scope gives large groups with the occasional wild shot. so I guess the scope is junk.

conclusion
keyholes were from severe lead fouling in barrel
large groups are because the scope is junk

a pic of the keyholes
Image

Left side is with the scope and the Right side is with the laser
Image
Image
I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.

User avatar
HK91
Silent Operator
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:52 pm
Location: NE

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards.. problems found

Post by HK91 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:32 pm

sub-sonic,

Good to hear you got it figured out and no barrel replacement will be needed.

One winter I was shooting my Ruger Mk I, 6 7/8" pistol almost every other night at an indoor range, I went close to 3000 rounds before cleaning it, mostly to see how long it would go. Never had any keyholes, but the fouling was pretty thick. Since then I clean it about every 500 rounds.

HK91

Historian
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards.. problems found

Post by Historian » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:26 am

HK91 wrote:sub-sonic,

Good to hear you got it figured out and no barrel replacement will be needed.

One winter I was shooting my Ruger Mk I, 6 7/8" pistol almost every other night at an indoor range, I went close to 3000 rounds before cleaning it, mostly to see how long it would go. Never had any keyholes, but the fouling was pretty thick. Since then I clean it about every 500 rounds.

HK91
Wow!

On the other end of the spectrum are us OCD folks who brush their teeth after every meal ( all own teeth after
over 3/4 century :) ) and clean every weapon after each use ( e.g., Red Nine, Artillery Luge, M1A1, etc., still 'cherry' ).

1940's teacher's dictum in South Boston: " Cleanliness is next to Godliness'.

Archilochus
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 6:18 pm

Re: .22 keyholing at 3 yards

Post by Archilochus » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:37 pm

sub-sonic wrote:... did some more testing and found its the scope thats causing the big groups.
using the laser I get sub inch groups at 15 no matter what ammo but using the scope gives large groups with the occasional wild shot. so I guess the scope is junk.

conclusion
large groups are because the scope is junk
I's gots to know - what brand / model scope is it :shock:

Post Reply