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Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:42 pm
by friendlysniper
http://www.ebay.com/itm/tube-aluminum-1 ... 20db5a8c7e

These are aluminum tubes with caps. The seller has a variety of lengths and widths. They don't seem intended for the purposes of building a suppressor from what I can gather from the rest of their listings. Seems like they'd be ready to go, all they'd need is threading for mounting on a barrel and an exit hole. No idea how thick these caps are though.

Thoughts?

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:38 am
by Historian
Such sealed tubes like those are useful for storage of valuables such as coins, jewels,
electronic parts, optics, calibration instruments, etc.

Other uses could be problematic.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:41 am
by CMV
Just build your own. That way it's to your specs and you aren't limiting yourself to a premade length or diameter.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:52 am
by Bendersquint
I would pass on them, I know they are the easy way out of actually having to do some work but I wouldn't risk the law enforcement involvement for buying silencer parts, as that would be your INTENDED purpose for buying it.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:33 am
by Global Armory
I would pass on this item too, if the ATF were ever to get involved they could easily get the vendors records and come knocking on doors.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:22 pm
by Elkins45
If you have an approved Form 1 then why would it matter if the ATF comes knocking?

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:29 pm
by Bendersquint
Elkins45 wrote:If you have an approved Form 1 then why would it matter if the ATF comes knocking?
Because he is buying it with the intent of being used as a silencer part.

From ATF website....


Emphasis by me.
"The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication."

That means he can't legally buy the part since it is intended to be used in the fabrication of a silencer and that would constitute buying silencers parts which is a no-no for individuals.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:10 pm
by bitfi3nd
Bendersquint wrote:
Elkins45 wrote:If you have an approved Form 1 then why would it matter if the ATF comes knocking?
Because he is buying it with the intent of being used as a silencer part.

From ATF website....


Emphasis by me.
"The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication."

That means he can't legally buy the part since it is intended to be used in the fabrication of a silencer and that would constitute buying silencers parts which is a no-no for individuals.
Then why would barstock/tubing/freeze plugs/washers etc. not be the same thing? It seems like if you have a form 1, you have the OK to make a silencer & you obviously have to make it out of something. And no matter what it is you decide to make it out of would have to be "designed or redesigned."

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:01 pm
by friendlysniper
You all seem to be misinterpreting the intention of this post. I'm looking for thoughts purely in the realm of machining these tubes and endcaps into a suppressor. Obviously if I'm posting this link on this forum, they're intended to be used for a form 1 suppressor. I don't specifically intend to use this for a form 1 suppressor myself because there are much more readily available means to do so. I wanted to share it with you all all incase it may benefit you in the future, when I find something useful for building a suppressor I like to post it here to help others.
Bendersquint wrote:
Elkins45 wrote:If you have an approved Form 1 then why would it matter if the ATF comes knocking?
Because he is buying it with the intent of being used as a silencer part.

From ATF website....


Emphasis by me.
"The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication."

That means he can't legally buy the part since it is intended to be used in the fabrication of a silencer and that would constitute buying silencers parts which is a no-no for individuals.

Individuals, perhaps, but not a no-no for trusts. It is completely and totally legal for an individual to purchase parts with the intention of those parts being used in a suppressor in accordance with a form one approved by the ATF for a trust, which is not limited to individuals. I am sure you are already aware of this.
CMV wrote:Just build your own. That way it's to your specs and you aren't limiting yourself to a premade length or diameter.
I'm not really looking for advice in that realm, I already have my plans laid out. I'm posting this for discussion about the application of this for future suppressors. Throwing another 'idea' or 'part' in the parts/ideas bin for the rest of us.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:02 am
by Elkins45
bitfi3nd wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
Elkins45 wrote:If you have an approved Form 1 then why would it matter if the ATF comes knocking?
Because he is buying it with the intent of being used as a silencer part.

From ATF website....


Emphasis by me.
"The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication."

That means he can't legally buy the part since it is intended to be used in the fabrication of a silencer and that would constitute buying silencers parts which is a no-no for individuals.
Then why would barstock/tubing/freeze plugs/washers etc. not be the same thing? It seems like if you have a form 1, you have the OK to make a silencer & you obviously have to make it out of something. And no matter what it is you decide to make it out of would have to be "designed or redesigned."

This is my question as well. What's the difference between buying this tube and buying bar stock or tubing or a maglite? All Form 1 silencers are made out of something. How do you make a silencer without buying the materials to make it with?

Edit: so after a little mental processing I think I have the distinction figured out. It's the difference between buying bar stock and turning a K baffle vs purchasing a K baffle that has already been turned. In the latter case you are buying a silencer part as opposed to buying stuff to make a silencer part.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:43 am
by SPdotCOM
"... How do you make a silencer without buying the materials to make it with?"
Easy, sourcing from his shop. Anything else, is unlegal.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:52 am
by doubloon
friendlysniper wrote:...
Individuals, perhaps, but not a no-no for trusts. It is completely and totally legal for an individual to purchase parts with the intention of those parts being used in a suppressor in accordance with a form one approved by the ATF for a trust, which is not limited to individuals. I am sure you are already aware of this.
...
I am not already aware of this. Can you cite the specific reference in the supporting documentation.

AFAIK a trust is a legal entity like an individual or a corporation and when it comes to unlicensed individuals, trusts or corporations there is no difference in their legal standing with regard to executing a Form 1.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:27 am
by Dr.K
It's not a silencer part. Could you make a silencer out of it legally with a form 1? Sure. As far as the dimensions of the item, I'm not sure the end cap would have enough meat there for muzzle threads. I'd pass unless I could handle the item first to better determine if suitable.

With that said, I make legal silencers out of things I buy all the time. No worries.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:26 am
by doubloon
Dr.K wrote:It's not a silencer part. ...
I tend to agree.

But I still want to know where it clearly states a trust has more rights or authority or legal protection than an individual with regard to executing a Form 1.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:01 pm
by Dr.K
doubloon wrote:
Dr.K wrote:It's not a silencer part. ...
I tend to agree.

But I still want to know where it clearly states a trust has more rights or authority or legal protection than an individual with regard to executing a Form 1.
That I don't completely agree with. It is a separate entity, but controlled by a person, so arguing that the trust broke the law, but I the grantor of the trust didn't.......well, you'd likely be laughed at all the way to pound me in the ass federal prison.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:58 pm
by Bendersquint
Elkins45 wrote: Edit: so after a little mental processing I think I have the distinction figured out. It's the difference between buying bar stock and turning a K baffle vs purchasing a K baffle that has already been turned. In the latter case you are buying a silencer part as opposed to buying stuff to make a silencer part.
Bingo.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:01 pm
by Bendersquint
SPdotCOM wrote:
"... How do you make a silencer without buying the materials to make it with?"
Easy, sourcing from his shop. Anything else, is unlegal.
Sorry Paul we aren't a source of parts for Form1 builders.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:13 pm
by bitfi3nd
Bendersquint wrote:
Elkins45 wrote: Edit: so after a little mental processing I think I have the distinction figured out. It's the difference between buying bar stock and turning a K baffle vs purchasing a K baffle that has already been turned. In the latter case you are buying a silencer part as opposed to buying stuff to make a silencer part.
Bingo.
That makes no sense, because a K baffle is a silencer part, this is a tube with threaded endcaps with no holes in it. You still have to drill & tap it.
What is the difference between this and a freeze plug or a washer? You don't have to even form either of those if you don't want to to use them as baffles, this requires work to use it as a silencer part.

Still makes no sense. Especially in the context of building a form 1 silencer.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:13 am
by LavaRed
I guess the question here would be, at what point does raw stock become a silencer part as defined under the law?

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:12 am
by jreinke
LavaRed wrote:I guess the question here would be, at what point does raw stock become a silencer part as defined under the law?
I believe the word you're looking for is "intent". :wink:

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:49 pm
by Elkins45
So where does this leave MagLite silencers? Is it OK if you already own a MagLite but illegal if you go out and buy one just to make a silencer with? The intent is still to purchase them as silencer parts.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:06 pm
by twodollarbill
Global Armory wrote:I would pass on this item too, if the ATF were ever to get involved they could easily get the vendors records and come knocking on doors.
Exactly!!!
I've been a member on ebay since 2003 with +1700 feedbacks.
I looked up my history the other day and it shows everything that I did on DAY ONE.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:04 pm
by rodpiper
"intent" has to have applied evidence or other damning circumstantial evidence, otherwise its just speculation, any lawyer will tell you this.

Example, you get caught by feds making what looks like a K baffle on your lathe at home and you don't have a form-1, very likely the item is for a silencer, but may not be, i am allowed to make something that looks like a K baffle if my intent is to put it into a testing apparatus doing air flow experiments. Or, you post on this site and face-crook that you are looking to make a few baffles, yet you don't have form-1 but you bought some items that match your written words, intent may be there due to linkage.

Buying that flea-bay item is just buying metal. Even if you post asking if it would make a good silencer, and then buy it, intent will be hard to prove, you could just be buying it to look at the materials up close in-person. What you do with it next is up to you. It not a form-1 item until you start making it a form-1 item, etc.

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:45 pm
by LavaRed
So, basically, as soon as you file for a form-1, you are officially documenting your intent? Sounds like a catch-22

Re: Thoughts on these tubes I found on ebay?

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:22 pm
by bitfi3nd
This thread still has the crazy.
When you file a form1 to make a silencer, of course you have intent to make a silencer. Having intent to make a silencer is not illegal, unless you don't file a form 1 and get a stamp.
If you have a stamp to make a form 1 silencer, you can make the thing out of anything you fucking want, with zero legal jeopardy since you filed the form, paid the tax, and received the stamp. You're 100% legal & good to go.

If anything I said were untrue, it would be impossible to make a form1 silencer, and we all know that to be false.