The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, bakerjw

alordnapa
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:01 pm

The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by alordnapa » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:13 pm

Now I know that its generally considered impossible to suppress a Revolver ( Except the Nagant and a few special purpose weapons) but how true is this really? Given the amount of gas noise from blow back actions, breech gas leakage is clearly a major factor, but if a revolver was assembled with an interference fit instead of a cylinder gap ( Yes, I know it would get dirty and plug up quickly) and a relatively low pressure cartridge was utilized, wouldn't you expect a suppressed revolver to produce somewhat diminished sound pressure?

one-eyed Jack
Silent Operator
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:01 am

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by one-eyed Jack » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:45 pm

Probably for the first shot. But it seems to work good in the movies. Jack.

IslandTimes
Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:36 pm

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by IslandTimes » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:30 pm

I've heard that Dan Wesson revolvers suppress moderately well when you adjust the gap between the cylinder and barrel to minimal distance. Also, you apparently have to shoot it very quickly as the heat will make the barrel expand enough to jam the cylinder.

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by doubloon » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:34 pm

I thought Knights Armament made one a while back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by doubloon » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:54 pm

alordnapa wrote:... an interference fit instead of a cylinder gap ...
I don't recall how Knight's accomplished their design, I'd have to look it up again. I think they had a suppressed revolver rifle as well.

I've toyed around with a couple ideas in my head but I'm not machinist and don't have the tools or the skills to play with it.

The interference fit would almost definitely work but the only way I've been able to think to do it is with a cylinder that "rocks" in and out of lock-up with the pull of the trigger. Heaving the cylinder on a pivot in and out of lockup with the barrel would probably be a very long and tough trigger pull.

The only other "design" I've tumbled around in my head is something like a ball valve timed to rotate between the cylinder face and the barrel. The ball could be ovular in shape to help with the timing which would mean some dents between chambers to accommodate the shape. The main problem in my imagination is keeping the ball valve from popping out. It could be a hard plastic ball which would allow some pressure to be applied for keeping it in the "trough" ... a plastic ball would have to be replaced now and again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

alordnapa
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:01 pm

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by alordnapa » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:10 pm

My vision of the revolver would be top break so that closing the cylinder across the interference fit forcing cone would not be a problem, and that the end of the cylinder's chambers would have a shallow, hemispherical dishing. The entire barrel would be under spring compression, pushing the oppositely domed forcing cone into interference fit with the cylinder. The initial trigger pull might be pretty heavy, since it would need to be sufficient to overcome the spring detent resistance, but would be lighter after the cylinder goes out of battery. The Nagant solution was brilliant, although the gun itself is completely impossible to fire double action with any accuracy, since the trigger pull is so enormous. The firing pin also looks like it was designed by a sado-masochist! My idea might only be feasible for something really anemic, like a .22 short, or very low power sub-sonic round.

User avatar
gunny50
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 am
Location: EU

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by gunny50 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:14 pm

doubloon wrote:I thought Knights Armament made one a while back.

oldy
Image
Silent Dan Wesson
Image
More than one company solved this revolver issue, each one tried to come up with their special solution..
Knights made special munition for that Ruger based revolver, this cartridge had a kind of sabot / moving sleeve that held the 30 caliber projectile if memory serves me right.

Image
Image
A German company " Peters" made a S&W in 45ACP (PSDR3) with huge casing around the cylinder and barrel, this was extremely silent so to say was made as revolver and revolver carbine and delivered to a special police unit.
Cilinder had moving bushing like a G11 rifle, floating chamber to close the gap.
Image
PSDR3 bafflestack
Image
Gunny
Last edited by gunny50 on Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by doubloon » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:20 pm

heh ... the PSDR3 ... I had forgotten about that monstrosity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by doubloon » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:25 pm

alordnapa wrote:... overcome the spring detent resistance, ...
One of the reasons I started thinking about the ball valve. No springs, fewer moving parts, possibly minimal added resistance over the normal revolver action and no additional trigger pull length required.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

User avatar
gunny50
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 am
Location: EU

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by gunny50 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:48 pm

doubloon wrote:
alordnapa wrote:... an interference fit instead of a cylinder gap ...
The only other "design" I've tumbled around in my head is something like a ball valve timed to rotate between the cylinder face and the barrel. The ball could be ovular in shape to help with the timing which would mean some dents between chambers to accommodate the shape. The main problem in my imagination is keeping the ball valve from popping out. It could be a hard plastic ball which would allow some pressure to be applied for keeping it in the "trough" ... a plastic ball would have to be replaced now and again.

Knights sub-caliber ammunition with telescoping sleeve in the case is a better solution.
When material choice is done well one could even reload these.
All one needs is a lathe, good polymer rod, some machining time, new barrel for revolver and ready to go.
556 or 30 caliber options.

Gunny

User avatar
gunny50
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 am
Location: EU

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by gunny50 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:01 pm

Faced with a Request For Proposal (RFP) for a relatively close range (100 meters), sound suppressed sniper weapon with the potential for rapid follow-up shots and because semiauto pistols tend to spit empty cases all over the scenery and there are some operational circumstances under which this might compromise the mission the request included the requirement that there be no empty cases to police up."
"Knight responded with a tour de force totally unique in the annals of sound suppresser history. Knight's successful response to the RFP combines special telescoped ammunition with a modified Ruger revolver to which have been attached sound suppressers. Also because of the 100 meter range Knight wanted a more stable platform. For this Knight designed the 'Revolver Rifle'."
"Starting envelope for the revolver rifle is a Ruger caliber .44 Magnum Super Redhawk revolver. The crane/cylinder assembly is essentially the same. All stainless steel components have been finished by the black-oxide process."
"The factory barrel has been replaced by a four grove, 30 caliber barrel, 10 inches in overall length, with a right hand rifling twist of one turn in 9 inches. The front cylinder gap is adjusted to a maximum of 0.005 inch and a minimum of 0.003 inch."
"This is an exceptionally fast twist for a bullet weighing only 145 grains. However, the muzzle velocity is only 1,025 fps. The twist is required to stabilize the flight path of such a light weight projectile moving at such a reduced velocity, and to provide the necessary accuracy potential. To further minimize the tendency of the slow moving projectile to yaw in flight, "driving" or "rotating" bands have been milled into the flat based solid brass bullet in the manner of many artillery shells."
"Screw-turned with a needle sharp point, the bullet is encased in an aluminum piston with a black plastic front face seal. Both are loaded into a Federal .44 magnum case. Powered by an undisclosed propellant of undisclosed charge weight and upon ignition, the piston moves forward a small amount and its beveled face interfaces with the rear end of the barrel to seal the front cylinder gap. A rubber O-ring on the piston seals the case from propellant blow by, so that all of the propellant gas is driven into the sound suppresser attached to the barrel".

"An unusually long sound suppresser (18.5 inches) fits over the barrel and is attached to the revolver by means of a knurled, threaded coupler on the front end of the frame. The suppresser's housing is made from black-anodized, 6061 T6 aluminum tubing. The interior consists of a series of steel and aluminum baffles, together with rolled metal screen material. This suppresser has an exceptional life span of 5,000 rounds or more."
"The sound signature produced by this system is about 119 dB. The sound pressure generated buy the weapon unsuppressed is about 163 dB. The sound of the hammer dropping on an empty chamber is about 112 dB, so the muzzle blast is reduced to only 7 dB more then the sound of the action and the firearms flash signature is completely eliminated."
"The black polyurethane forearm under the barrel has a quick release stud to which a Harris Bipod can be attached. A detachable polyurethane and steel buttstock is also provided. The overall length of the Revolver Rifle is 36.5 inches with the buttstock and sound suppresser attached. Weight is about 8.5 pounds."
"The standard type, open notch rear sight has been let in place with two horizontal tritium bars. A single tritium dot has been installed on the serrated blade type front sight mounted on the front of the suppresser housing."
"What's the accuracy potential of these esoteric snuffers? The weapon was tested at 100 meters from a bench rest. 2 inch groups were fired until it became monotonous. That's more then sufficient to meet any Mission Essential Need Statement likely to have been developed for this weapon system. Without a doubt, C. Reed Knight Jr. has created a most impressive and totally unique weapons system."

End Quote.
Last edited by gunny50 on Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CThomas
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1274
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:48 pm

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by CThomas » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:50 pm

Image

User avatar
Capt. Link.
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2593
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:05 pm
Location: USA.

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:28 pm

The .224 caliber Knight revolver and the .30 R-squared carbine are both wet cans that use welded SS mesh to reach these suppression levels.I am surprised more F-1 guys don't use this old technology that works so well.
While dated in design this wet can still kicks butt on the range and field in 5.56 without mesh.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=78809
ImageImage
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by doubloon » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:00 pm

gunny50 wrote:...
Knights sub-caliber ammunition with telescoping sleeve in the case is a better solution.
...
captured piston?

If so I seem to recall somebody making a bunch of noise about each round being a suppressor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

User avatar
Capt. Link.
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2593
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:05 pm
Location: USA.

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:34 pm

doubloon wrote:
gunny50 wrote:...
Knights sub-caliber ammunition with telescoping sleeve in the case is a better solution.
...
captured piston?

If so I seem to recall somebody making a bunch of noise about each round being a suppressor.
No its more like a o-ring that forms a seal between cartridge and barrel that retracts into the case after its been fired.A captured piston round would not require the suppressor at all.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!

User avatar
gunny50
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 am
Location: EU

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by gunny50 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:36 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
doubloon wrote:
gunny50 wrote:...
Knights sub-caliber ammunition with telescoping sleeve in the case is a better solution.
...
captured piston?

If so I seem to recall somebody making a bunch of noise about each round being a suppressor.
No its more like a o-ring that forms a seal between cartridge and barrel that retracts into the case after its been fired.A captured piston round would not require the suppressor at all.

You are right Capt.
No piston, as mentioned in my post above its a small metal cylinder that is held in place in the case. ( see patent drawing above - bushing crimped in - make crimp grove a little long so it moves)
This calendar can move out just a little, see it as a Sabot that can not completely leave the case. It will stop against the face of the barrel sealing it from escaping gasses.

Gunny

User avatar
Prince Yamato
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:55 am

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by Prince Yamato » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:01 pm

Would it be all that hard for S&W to make a revolver like the Nagant? I mean, we're talking 100 year old technology. Do a .357 magnum with a cylinder that moves forward like the Nagant. Use a replaceable silicone wipe in front of the cylinder. Cylinder rotates, pushes forward, gap is sealed, you can fire standard .38 special. No need for the special casing on Nagant cartridges. Thread barrel for 9mm can.

User avatar
gunny50
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 am
Location: EU

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by gunny50 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:11 pm

Prince Yamato wrote:Would it be all that hard for S&W to make a revolver like the Nagant? I mean, we're talking 100 year old technology. Do a .357 magnum with a cylinder that moves forward like the Nagant. Use a replaceable silicone wipe in front of the cylinder. Cylinder rotates, pushes forward, gap is sealed, you can fire standard .38 special. No need for the special casing on Nagant cartridges. Thread barrel for 9mm can.

Making your own ammunition like the Knights is far easier.
If you have a lathe and reloading dies you can do this.
Re-barrel your 44 in 30 cal or 357 in 556.
Done.

Sleeve in Aluminum or even brass.
For cases you have to leave behind ( single use) use Ultum 100 thats the same material that they use on the 50 BMG sabots, will hold up the pressure and heat.
Testing can be done with the sleeve inserted, slight taper crimp. Igniting powder will push the sleeve forward and seal the gap of your basic revolver.

I'll check if I have an old Dan Wesson in my shop, easy barrel change, good timing options on the gap. Do have some 1:7 556 sections in store.
At the moment I'm completely booked but seems a nice project for later this year.
Ported barrel, stainless screen , my new 556 baffles or even K's and done. Still have 3 sqM stainless screen.

I'll make a quick dwg tonight with some ideas.

Gunny

User avatar
gunny50
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:11 am
Location: EU

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by gunny50 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:07 am

Found some time to do the 3D model on a 357Magnum / 556 round with floating Sleeve.

Image


Sleeve in Aluminum or even brass, O-ring seal.
For cases you have to leave behind ( single use) use Ultum 100 thats the same material that they use on the 50 BMG sabots, will hold up the pressure and heat.
Igniting powder will push the sleeve forward and seal the gap.

Gunny

User avatar
NPE
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:10 pm

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by NPE » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:09 pm

Gunny

Why port the barrel? If you are loading the telescoping ammo why not make subsonic loads?

Nice design for the round :D
HIS JUDGEMENT COMETH AND THAT RIGHT SOON....

Grounded
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:44 am
Location: US of A

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by Grounded » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:30 pm

The way I would do this is to change the means by which the cylinder revolves and make something kinda like the action on a pen. As you would pull the trigger the cylinder would rotate and lift away from the barrel and when you finished the rotation it would spring forward taking up the gap and/or sealing with some sort of taper.
07/02 behind enemy lines

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by doubloon » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:29 pm

Grounded wrote:The way I would do this is to change the means by which the cylinder revolves and make something kinda like the action on a pen. As you would pull the trigger the cylinder would rotate and lift away from the barrel and when you finished the rotation it would spring forward taking up the gap and/or sealing with some sort of taper.
Uhm ..


Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

Grounded
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:44 am
Location: US of A

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by Grounded » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:59 pm

doubloon wrote:
Grounded wrote:The way I would do this is to change the means by which the cylinder revolves and make something kinda like the action on a pen. As you would pull the trigger the cylinder would rotate and lift away from the barrel and when you finished the rotation it would spring forward taking up the gap and/or sealing with some sort of taper.
Uhm ..


Image
I'm aware of the nagant but I would have way more stroke allowing for a better seal given the nature of running it suppressed.
07/02 behind enemy lines

User avatar
Prince Yamato
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:55 am

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by Prince Yamato » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:52 pm

Making your own ammunition like the Knights is far easier.
You clearly have not seen me try to "make" anything. :lol:

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: The impossible; Supressing the revolver

Post by doubloon » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:59 pm

Grounded wrote:...
I'm aware of the nagant but I would have way more stroke allowing for a better seal given the nature of running it suppressed.
ah

I'd just like to see a similar design with less trigger pull
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

Post Reply