patent question/discussion

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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daviscustom
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patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:16 pm

If I, or anyone, post a new design on this or any other forum, doesn't that effectively keep anyone else from patenting your idea? I have read it is called defensive publication.....making the creator of an idea public knowledge and establishing a claim to the intellectual property. Is there a downside to doing this if you think you might want to pursue a patent someday? I would think this would establish a person's claim to an idea...it wouldn't create a problem in getting a patent would it? I guess it could give someone else the opportunity to improve on the idea and patent the improved or similar idea that they might not have thought of otherwise.

Just curious if anyone here has any experience with "defensive publication", initially I thought it might make folks more likely to share ideas....but there is always going to be the problem of giving ideas to the competition if you are trying to pursue a living building suppressors. I guess without professional sound testing nobody really knows how well a design works by watching a YouTube video, so it is hard to know if it is really worth pursuing.....just curious if anyone knew anything about this.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by doubloon » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:26 am

If it's really worth protecting get an actual patent.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by curtistactical » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:57 am

Unless it is something extremely different patents are a waste of money. I wish I had used the money I spent on my patent on advertising instead. The suppressor market is ruled by some big well known names so it is more of a marketing and customer service game. A suppressor can only get so quiet so currently emphasis is now heading in the lighter / more durable direction. I would not be afraid to show my idea on here, there may be someone use your idea for a form one can or something if its that good of idea but who cares about that. It would be well worth posting it as a lot of very smart guys with a ton of experience are on here and will tell you the good and bad parts of your idea.
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daviscustom
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:47 pm

I'm not sitting on any ground breaking designs.... :wink: as far as I know at this point, I was just thinking that there tends to be very little in the way of "new" ideas being kicked around in the daylight here. Just thought if posting a design publicly was a legitimate way of staking an intellectual claim, so-to-speak, that folks might not be as shy about kicking around ideas on the forum.

I have seen folks that were reluctant to show the guts of a can because they wanted to pursue the possibility of a patent. I realize that in most cases there is nothing new under the sun, and most ideas have been tried by someone else at some point, and this is a good place to find out if it might be worth pursuing.....I also know that most folks don't want to risk their stamp to try something new, so everyone gravitates toward the "tried and true".

Maybe there could be a "Silencer Design" section separate from the normal posts about how to adapt 60 deg cones or K-baffles to a particular application. Design implies a creative component where "smithing" seems to be more about technical issues of craftsmanship ,machining, welding, material strengths and such.......just trying to stimulate discussion.

Maybe there aren't enough folks that are interested in discussing/trying new ideas....don't know.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by doubloon » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:44 pm

daviscustom wrote:...
Maybe there aren't enough folks that are interested in discussing/trying new ideas....don't know.
New idea sure but there's really not much new to discuss about patents, trademarks, copyrights, defensive publications, yada yada, blah blah ...

No matter what route you go it will not prevent anyone from reproducing or copying your stuff except honest and knowledgeable people.

It is still your burden to hunt them down and prosecute them which costs $$$. If you don't have the money or resources to enforce ownership over your stuff then it's pointless to declare it to be your stuff unless you just want something to hang on the wall and impress your friends.

Thus the two opinions which seem different but really aren't all that far apart. Patents are worthless for worthless stuff but they're OK for things that can make you a lot of money.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:42 pm

I agree the patent discussion is not that interesting...just thought this twist might make some folks more inclined to share.

More design ideas/discussions are what I am interested in...guess my thread title could have been chosen better, but at the time I was curious about whether that method of protecting intellectual property was effective.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by SPdotCOM » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:54 pm

daviscustom wrote:I'm not sitting on any ground breaking designs.... :wink: as far as I know at this point, I was just thinking that there tends to be very little in the way of "new" ideas being kicked around in the daylight here. Just thought if posting a design publicly was a legitimate way of staking an intellectual claim, so-to-speak, that folks might not be as shy about kicking around ideas on the forum.

I have seen folks that were reluctant to show the guts of a can because they wanted to pursue the possibility of a patent. I realize that in most cases there is nothing new under the sun, and most ideas have been tried by someone else at some point, and this is a good place to find out if it might be worth pursuing.....I also know that most folks don't want to risk their stamp to try something new, so everyone gravitates toward the "tried and true".

Maybe there could be a "Silencer Design" section separate from the normal posts about how to adapt 60 deg cones or K-baffles to a particular application. Design implies a creative component where "smithing" seems to be more about technical issues of craftsmanship ,machining, welding, material strengths and such.......just trying to stimulate discussion.

Maybe there aren't enough folks that are interested in discussing/trying new ideas....don't know.
I wonder why this topic sounds very familiar to me ... :wink: :wink:

BTW, smithing is no longer a "technical issue" with modern technologies. The modern future is going to be written in 3D not in 2D. IronMen is dead, long live to CamMen !

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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by doubloon » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:20 pm

daviscustom wrote:...just thought this twist might make some folks more inclined to share.
...
Have you viewed Wicked's Completed Form 1 Build Thread at the link in my signature?

Five pages of sharing.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:39 pm

doubloon wrote: Have you viewed Wicked's Completed Form 1 Build Thread at the link in my signature?

Five pages of sharing.

I haven't done the stats, but the lions share of the completed builds are just re-hashing of the tried and true designs.....very nicely executed in most cases, but the designs rarely stray from the beaten path.

It is good that we have many skilled craftsmen in our ranks, but it seems the designs/ideas have stagnated a bit.

I know it requires more risk for those of us in the U.S. to try new ideas, but it would be good to encourage a little more creative thought/dialogue in the forum again.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by SPdotCOM » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:23 am

Hi,

OK, so why don't you start a thematic thread for new Designs and Ideas ?, like the Completed Builds one or the Baffles Pics one but for new stuff.

I don't think the USA restrictive laws in regards to Suppressors should be an issue since Designs & Ideas are not subject to any Law.

In order to prevent this new thread to become a "Silencer part" you can first disclaim that the "intent" is just educational ...

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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by doubloon » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:28 am

daviscustom wrote:... but it would be good to encourage a little more creative thought/dialogue in the forum again.
So you never actually wanted to talk about patents to begin with?
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:47 am

You got me all figured out .....I just wanted to argue about the lack of creative drive on the forum. :roll:

In reality the patent question was the real reason I posted the question to begin with, but I realized along the way that was one of the reasons why I lost interest in talking designs on the forum and I thought others might be holding back as well....and now you have reminded me of one of the other reasons......carry on.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by doubloon » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:49 pm

I would recommend starting a discussion about designs instead of patents.

It's worked very well for other people in the past and, of course, not so well for some.

Mostly the ones it works well for are the ones who submit at least some initial design to start the discussion. The ones it doesn't work so well for are the ones who submit nothing and expect everyone else to provide the ideas.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:11 pm

I will try to get my act together to do that, it doesn't appear anyone has anything more to say about the patent question.

The designs I am working on kind-of require 3-d modeling to make any sense and I am afraid I am not very good at even 2-d cad yet, so it will likely consist of descriptions and some sketches. 2-d section drawings don't really give enough info to figure them out.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:31 pm

Posting a picture or even schematics on the internet does NOT protect you from someone else patenting out from under you....been there done that lost an idea that has made an individual close to a million on royalties so far.

I posted it because of the exact OP reason.....I thought it would protect me, it didn't as the thief(who has acknowledged that it was stolen) "proved" the idea was his by using an old newspaper from months prior.

If you want to protect yourself get the patent pending before you disclose it and make sure your ducks are in a row, and be sure you have the $$$ to defend it as well.

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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:59 pm

Thanks Bender, I was hoping someone here would have a little personal experience....sorry it worked out in the other guys favor.

It would have been nice to have a simple/free way to establish a claim to an idea, but unfortunately the world is brimming with ass-holes that will do anything to make a buck.
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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:05 am

daviscustom wrote:Thanks Bender, I was hoping someone here would have a little personal experience....sorry it worked out in the other guys favor.

It would have been nice to have a simple/free way to establish a claim to an idea, but unfortunately the world is brimming with ass-holes that will do anything to make a buck.

If there was something that easy NOONE would spend the funds to patent and defend.

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Re: patent question/discussion

Post by daviscustom » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:33 am

I thought that method sounded to good to be true. Once your idea is out there, there are too many ways to screw you out of it....and plenty of folks that are more then willing to do it.

My original concern was that if you made the idea public it would cause problems in the patent process....and it does, just not the way I was originally thinking about it. Since the patent is the only "iron clad" way to establish a claim to intellectual property (if you can afford to defend it), the answer is "no", defensive publication doesn't work the way it is supposed to any more. The more I thought about it, the more I had the feeling that it wouldn't work very well.....thanks again for speaking up about your experience.
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