My Freeze plug baffle forming

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c5_nc
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My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

Here is my baffle forming process for a concave cone baffle from freeze plugs. This method is repeatable for consistency baffle to baffle. This is for the SD Tactical Maglite build, with a SD Tactical tube, and their center finder, and Napa 381-3179 Freeze Plugs.

Baffles are all center marked, drilled with a 1/8" bit and if you are wanting vent holes then 1.8mm holes are drilled, they will expand up to 1.8mmX2.4mm during the forming process, you can enlarge after forming if needed. Baffles for all calibers start like this:

Image

The cone forming process will increase the hole size about 50%. You want the hole size about .060 over the round, so are looking at finished baffles with a .28 finished size for 223 or .37 finished size for 308. Next you pick your start off hole size for 223. PIctured is a 11/64" drill bit (.16") that requires 4 expansion steps and will give about a 60deg or more cone. If you are looking to keep it simple you can drill 7/32" (.21") hole and it requires only one press for around a 45deg cone. For 308 to get a .37" finished hole you can start with 7/32" and requires 4 press steps, or a .27" hole that requires 3 press steps.

Image

Your going to need a 3/4" socket and probably are going to have 2-3 wraps of tape for a tight fit for a base for the freeze plug. Also your going to need a Torx set for about $10 at your AutoParts store. You are going to be crushing the torx sockets into your freeze plug, the star pattern will go through the center, you are using the neck to expand and form the plugs.

Image

For the example of a .16" start hole you will use a T10 first, T25, T27, then T30. Your pretty much going to have to use all your force to with each or the next will not fit, and on the final step another hard crush, stop and measure as needed, I hit .28" on each. The process is pretty consistent, each Torx bit will expand enough to allow the next one to just fit.

Image

For 308 you can start with a .21" hole and use a T27, T30, T40, T45 torx in that order, or use a .27" hole and a T30, T40, T45.

For a quicker way to form 223 baffles you can use a .21" hole and a single press with a T27 bit. The cone is a bit shallower this way, here is the single step one:

Image
Last edited by c5_nc on Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
tripntx
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by tripntx »

I had seen ball bearing being used before, but not torx sockets. This seems to be an excellent way to form them.
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L1A1Rocker
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by L1A1Rocker »

Great post. These expansion plug silencers are really a great way to Form1 a silencer.
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AlabamaPaul
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by AlabamaPaul »

Did the OD of the FP change after it was formed?
tripntx
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by tripntx »

I'm curious as well if the OD on plugs increased.

For what it's worth, this hone should work well to clean-up inside of pipe/tube http://www.amazon.com/Cal-Van-Tools-357 ... ngine+Hone
Last edited by tripntx on Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
c5_nc
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

Yes but by an insignificant amount, my digital caliber can not distinguish between the pressed ones and the new ones. However when installing both in a SD Tactical Maglite body the new ones slide down the tube freely and the pressed ones fit slightly tighter but you can press them in with a socket extension with very very minimal force. On the 1" freeze plugs for the "C" Maglite bodys that are actually 1.030" even the pressed ones still fit too loose. On the ones I aggressively skeletonized prior to pressing they did expand significantly.
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by sub-sonic »

well done
I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by Scared_of_zombies »

The torx bits are honestly a very creative way to do it, and seems like it would work much better than the simple ball bearing technique. Bravo.
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by Historian »

Your incorporating torx bits in this way brings on a smile of admiration
and a nomination for the Macgyver Innovator of the Week
Award.

So many other 'of course, why did I not think of this before' uses now spring to mind.

Thank you.


Best.
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by Capt. Link. »

The creative use of tools separates man from beast two opposable thumbs up!
ImageImage
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by cpy911 »

What is the theory and application of the vent holes and the various patterns seen there?

Very nice work btw. Very impressive.
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

cpy911 wrote:What is the theory and application of the vent holes and the various patterns seen there?

Very nice work btw. Very impressive.
My understanding is that traditionally centerfire cans had around 4 larger expansion chambers. The M4-2000 was introduced and was one of the best performing cans, it had a tight vented stack, the 308 cans are starting to get this (SDN-6). Surefire's very good performing 556 can is similar also. It is convenient to build this way because the baffles stack at .425 already so the layout would be similar to a M4-2000. I was going to open the vents to 2.4mm. There cans appear to have more 2-5 (?) vents at 2-3mm. They can be seen in this cutaway.

Image
Image
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sub-sonic
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by sub-sonic »

cpy911 wrote:What is the theory and application of the vent holes and the various patterns seen there?
I thought the holes were to let water out. seriously.

Rotate the silencer around its vertical axis to drain excess water from the interior. a quote from AAC
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

I ordered lots of hardened steel and titanium retainers last week. I will update everyone soon. All the C tube sizes ones have came in already, the most ideal one is a Comp 783 model, it fits the C tube perfect, it is 1.02" OD, .41" ID (front of cone) tapered to ~5" (toward the rear of the cone) and the depth is .33", this one was the shortest depth of the models I got, it is available in Tool Steel and Titanium also. The .41" bore is very close to a typical 9mm can, The C tube is the small aluminum can that would be a fit for a 9mm/300blk subsonic can. D tube ones I am still waiting for some of them to get here.

Image
mygreenkaw
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by mygreenkaw »

Those look intriguing care to share the source?
mgk
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by tripntx »

mygreenkaw wrote:Those look intriguing care to share the source?
These are the ones OP posted above, 1.380" OD, 0.5" stem ID:
http://www.cvproducts.com/ProdDet.aspx?PN=XRE557

These might work, 1.340" OD, 8mm stem (0.3149") ID, drill stem open a little:
Ti http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-2 ... /overview/
Chromoly steel http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-2 ... /overview/

These were mentioned on another forum as "fitting" perfectly into Apogee tubes, they have 1.350" OD, 0.470" stem ID:
http://www.cvproducts.com/ProdDet.aspx?PN=CV526

Summit search:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/part ... =Ascending

Spacers copied from another forum:
40mm http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=1602
32mm http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=1600
c5_nc
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

mygreenkaw wrote:Those look intriguing care to share the source?
I had listed the part number for the one that was the bet fit for the application, it is Comp Cams 783, the 783-1 is a single the 783-16 is the 16 pack, they for Chevy LS1/2 engines. Jegs, Summit Racing, pretty much any performance parts place sells them, Amazon sells them. You can can also buy them at pretty much any auto parts store, O'reillys and Autozone for example sell them. They are basically about $5, the tool steel on is usually around $12, the Ti one is about $25. The comp cam catalog is available online, it lists the other part numbers. I have the catalog at home, I can post these later.

I will update on the D cell tube ones in a couple days, the ID is not a published figure, the ID listed in catalogs or online is for the smallest spring step. Actuall IDs I have seen so far are .325, .410, .500"
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

tripntx wrote:
These are the ones OP posted above, 1.380" OD, 0.5" stem ID:
http://www.cvproducts.com/ProdDet.aspx?PN=XRE557
I don't think they are, I have not tried those, they would not appear to fit either tube, surely not the C tube.

These might work, 1.340" OD, 8mm stem (0.3149") ID, drill stem open a little:
Ti http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-2 ... /overview/
Chromoly steel http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-2 ... /overview/
These will not work, they are 1.20", way to small for D tube, way to big for C tube. The OD listing on retainers is typically not the OD of the retainer but the OD of the spring that will fit in the last step of the retainer

These were mentioned on another forum as "fitting" perfectly into Apogee tubes, they have 1.350" OD, 0.470" stem ID:
http://www.cvproducts.com/ProdDet.aspx?PN=CV526
These may be one of the ones I have for testing

Summit search:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/part ... =Ascending

Spacers copied from another forum:
40mm http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=1602
32mm http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=1600
If the 32mm, 40mm are OD listings they would not. If they are length and the OD is unpublished maybe, can you sent me a link to that discussion? That would be a really expensive solution rather than just cutting tubing.
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

My tubes came back from the engraver.

On the D Tube it is actually more like 1.36" ID.

My 1.350spec moly coated Ti retainers fit tight

My 1.350spec steel retainers are kinda loose. I'm not really all that sure what to do, if the movement is something I should be concerned with.

My formed baffles the hole ended up .01" off center on most of them. Should I open more, or clip the baffles on the tight side?

On the C Tube it does appear to be 1.03" ID.

My 1.030 retainers are actually 1.02" OD, they is minor looseness on these also of course.

My formed baffles expanded from 1.00 to 1.01 but they don't fit the tube tight, I didn't realize I use a expanding tool first on these.
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by mk3guy »

c5_nc wrote:My tubes came back from the engraver.

On the D Tube it is actually more like 1.36" ID.

My 1.350spec moly coated Ti retainers fit tight

My 1.350spec steel retainers are kinda loose. I'm not really all that sure what to do, if the movement is something I should be concerned with.

My formed baffles the hole ended up .01" off center on most of them. Should I open more, or clip the baffles on the tight side?

On the C Tube it does appear to be 1.03" ID.

My 1.030 retainers are actually 1.02" OD, they is minor looseness on these also of course.

My formed baffles expanded from 1.00 to 1.01 but they don't fit the tube tight, I didn't realize I use a expanding tool first on these.
did you happen to measure the inner diameter of the D tube Ti retainers yet?
Are they the same as in the link in the earlier post? The only ones I can seem to find are on the CVproducts site and the page is acting weird.
Thanks!
c5_nc
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

mk3guy wrote:
c5_nc wrote:My tubes came back from the engraver.

On the D Tube it is actually more like 1.36" ID.

My 1.350spec moly coated Ti retainers fit tight

My 1.350spec steel retainers are kinda loose. I'm not really all that sure what to do, if the movement is something I should be concerned with.

My formed baffles the hole ended up .01" off center on most of them. Should I open more, or clip the baffles on the tight side?

On the C Tube it does appear to be 1.03" ID.

My 1.030 retainers are actually 1.02" OD, they is minor looseness on these also of course.

My formed baffles expanded from 1.00 to 1.01 but they don't fit the tube tight, I didn't realize I use a expanding tool first on these.
did you happen to measure the inner diameter of the D tube Ti retainers yet?
Are they the same as in the link in the earlier post? The only ones I can seem to find are on the CVproducts site and the page is acting weird.
Thanks!
All of my retainers for the D tube are not current parts, they were take offs out of 2007-2009 Nascar engines, and purchased at a Charlotte sale where surplus Nascar/race parts are sold. To answer your question, I have Ti (14.3 grams) that are .410 and M300 hardened steel ones (14.9 grams) .325. I'm pretty sure they are Del West or Xceldyne parts, neither is listed in the current catalog. The .325 ones had a comp cams part number on them, but not in current catalogs and I could not find either. There is nothing suitable in the current Comp, Lunati, Manley, Crane, Xceldyne, CVproducts, or Del West Catalogs for 1.350. One of them had a 1.360 retainer although it was likely .510" center hole, that would probably work, may need some sanding of edges to get in.

Your going to have a hard time finding them or anything smaller, the engine application the standard multi-lock retainers basically dictates that the ID of most all retainers this size will be .500-.510, almost every manufacture produced them only for multi-locks now. The .410 is based on one of the standard valve sizes. The .325 is based on 7deg mini-locks which you almost never see. Typically valve stems are larger for valves this size, if you find a mini lock valve in 1.350 it was something made for a racing team that was cutting down weight to a minimum. You can buy valves for some of the imports with really small ID, like .280 and some lower or higher, but they are not big enough. If you are looking for a 1.000, 1.030 tube (Maglite C) Manley has sport compact titanium vales and they are only $10 or so, you would be looking for the ones with 5.5mm and 6mm stems. I haven't tried them because everyone that sells them wants $10+ shipping for a single valve.
mk3guy
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by mk3guy »

c5_nc wrote:
mk3guy wrote:
c5_nc wrote:My tubes came back from the engraver.

On the D Tube it is actually more like 1.36" ID.

My 1.350spec moly coated Ti retainers fit tight

My 1.350spec steel retainers are kinda loose. I'm not really all that sure what to do, if the movement is something I should be concerned with.

My formed baffles the hole ended up .01" off center on most of them. Should I open more, or clip the baffles on the tight side?

On the C Tube it does appear to be 1.03" ID.

My 1.030 retainers are actually 1.02" OD, they is minor looseness on these also of course.

My formed baffles expanded from 1.00 to 1.01 but they don't fit the tube tight, I didn't realize I use a expanding tool first on these.
did you happen to measure the inner diameter of the D tube Ti retainers yet?
Are they the same as in the link in the earlier post? The only ones I can seem to find are on the CVproducts site and the page is acting weird.
Thanks!
All of my retainers for the D tube are not current parts, they were take offs out of 2007-2009 Nascar engines, and purchased at a Charlotte sale where surplus Nascar/race parts are sold. To answer your question, I have Ti (14.3 grams) that are .410 and M300 hardened steel ones (14.9 grams) .325. I'm pretty sure they are Del West or Xceldyne parts, neither is listed in the current catalog. The .325 ones had a comp cams part number on them, but not in current catalogs and I could not find either. There is nothing suitable in the current Comp, Lunati, Manley, Crane, Xceldyne, CVproducts, or Del West Catalogs for 1.350. One of them had a 1.360 retainer although it was likely .510" center hole, that would probably work, may need some sanding of edges to get in.

Your going to have a hard time finding them or anything smaller, the engine application the standard multi-lock retainers basically dictates that the ID of most all retainers this size will be .500-.510, almost every manufacture produced them only for multi-locks now. The .410 is based on one of the standard valve sizes. The .325 is based on 7deg mini-locks which you almost never see. Typically valve stems are larger for valves this size, if you find a mini lock valve in 1.350 it was something made for a racing team that was cutting down weight to a minimum. You can buy valves for some of the imports with really small ID, like .280 and some lower or higher, but they are not big enough. If you are looking for a 1.000, 1.030 tube (Maglite C) Manley has sport compact titanium vales and they are only $10 or so, you would be looking for the ones with 5.5mm and 6mm stems. I haven't tried them because everyone that sells them wants $10+ shipping for a single valve.
It looked like the CVproducts page finally righted itself, they have a 1.36 outer diameter, and I found some PAC ones http://www.racingsprings.com/Dual-Sprin ... 8/Item/725 but they might be too large for me to handle. Is the inner diameter that critical (oversize-wise) if the intent is just to use the titanium as a blast baffle to protect the rest? or maybe 2 of them?
How would tool steel stand up to 5.56 blast out of shorter barrels? Ran cross this as well: http://www.racingsprings.com/Dual-Sprin ... /Item/1228
c5_nc
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by c5_nc »

As a single first blast baffle probably not a a big deal if oversized.
BenY 2013
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by BenY 2013 »

The baffles at the start of this thread, what is the easiest method to get concentric center holes in the freeze plugs? Sorry if it's a ridiculous question just curious!

Ben
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Re: My Freeze plug baffle forming

Post by Historian »

BenY 2013 wrote:The baffles at the start of this thread, what is the easiest method to get concentric center holes in the freeze plugs? Sorry if it's a ridiculous question just curious!

Ben
Good question, especially if you do not have a lathe and chuck.

A round stock center finder ... application of Euclidean Geometry.

If you do not want to spend the money on a most useful tool,

e.g. << http://www.claysculptors.com/combination%20Square.htm >>

then make one easily:

<< http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Center-Finder/ >>

<< http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Disc-Center-Finder/ >>
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