80% recievers

montage11 · Post by **montage11** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:17 pm

Probably belongs over at ar15.com...but i wanted you guys opinions.
If you can buy an 80% receiver, but not an 81% reciever...it must be because
ATF sees an 81% reciever as a gun. ATF doesnt allow anyone other than you to work on the gun.
But when am i allowed to take my home finished reciever to the gunsmith?
Am i allowed to take an 81% receiver/gun to a gunsmith
to make sure its to 'spec' and functioning 100% safely?
Maybe its required to have a serial # for the gunsmith to work on it?
Do i have to drill the hammer hole out wrong, just to take it to a gunsmith so he can say: "you
drilled the hammer hole out wrong". Do i have to ruin a receiver to take it to a gunsmith for
him to say, "you ruined the receiver, buy another one". Seems like the ATF can't have it both ways.
At 80% its not a gun, so you can do whatever. At 81% it is now a gun, but don't take
it to a gunsmith...as only real guns are allowed there.

noscoe30 · Post by **noscoe30** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:23 pm

I'm not a lawyer.

I think the intent is that you did enough work on the gun to be able to call it yours. If you did 1% of work to a gun, and another party did 99% then they would be the manufacturer. It doesn't matter if it came as an 80%, you added the fcg holes then had a gunsmith mill out the fcg pocket. They would still be doing the majority.

If you started with an 80% and kludged it together so that it could fire, but you had scrapes, tooling marks and other mistakes you could send it to a gunsmith to fix. But at this point you made a firearm so in order to send it to a gunsmith it needs manufacturer information and serial number. The non marking requirement is if it never leaves your possession.

srs · Post by **srs** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:33 pm

ATF does not call them 80% anything. That is a marketing thing.

ATF says "send it to us and we will determine if it is a gun or not". Period. Basically they give the "80%" manufacturers a "stay out of federal prison" letter. Additionally, while ATF would "prefer" that you put maker markings and SN on it, there are no federal regulations forcing it; some non-free states do require SN.

As a general rule; no fire control pocket, no holes for fire control components. If the barrel mounts into the receiver, no barrel hole.

So, if you start drilling on the fire control pocket, it appears that ATF will say it is now a firearm. That said, I really doubt any reputable gunsmith will take your "81%" and finish it for you. I see no problem at all with you taking your finished, or nearly finished, firearm to a gunsmith for final fitting, but I would really think you should do most of the work.

And yes, this has been discussed ad nauseum on arfcom.

-Steve

CMV · Post by **CMV** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Not really sure what you're asking but I can recap a discussion I had with a co-worker a few days ago about 80% receivers since I do a lot of them.

First, as SRS pointed out, there is no such thing as an "80% lower" as far as ATF is concerned. I have a determination letter from ATF that came with one brand of 80% lower stating that. 80% isn't a magical number and I would argue that much more than 80% of the work is already complete on what is typically sold as an 80% lower. At least from a complexity & time standpoint, the remaining ops aren't 20% of the work required to go from raw forging to finished receiver. But as far as ATF is concerned it is a firearm or it is not. It isn't X % of a firearm.

Nobody can take your 80% lower and finish it for you - unless they are an 07 FFL and pay the tax on it. Someone CAN let you use their machine, tooling, & fixtures and give you a great deal of help with the machining.

There is no requirement to engrave or mark the finished receiver. However, it's kind of stupid not to. If it ever comes up missing you have 0 chance of recovering your property. For people who want the clean look or no markings, I recommend engraving the flats under the pistol grip. Not visible, but it would be possible to ID it by a unique serial number or marking later if necessary. That's also a place a thief probably wouldn't consider looking.

If you someday wish to sell it you can. But you can't finish the lower with the intent to sell (or otherwise transfer) it. How your intent would be proven one way or another is debatable, but common sense should go a long way. Sell 5 finished 80% lowers in a year and it's probably difficult to get a reasonable person (let alone 12 of them) to go along with the idea that your intent was to make them for your personal use. But you sell one because you just don't want it any more, have bills to pay, want to trade for some other toy, etc that's simple enough & shouldn't raise any eyebrows.

I have just about all my ARs on 80% lowers now. It's a fun project plus you have the added privacy benefit. But unless you are doing billet lowers, it is not a way to save $. In general, taking an 80% to completion and then finishing (anodizing, Cerakote, whatever) will typically end up costing more than just grabbing a PSA or Anderson stripped lower.

Why do you think a gunsmith can't work on a firearm built from an 80% lower? Or a block of barstock even? They may choose not to but I can't think of a reason they would legally be prevented form doing so.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:15 pm

Another thing to consider is that a completed 80% unmarked lower can never be sent through the mail/courier anywhere, left with a FFL, or sold through an FFL.

To do any of the above you would have to have COMPLETE markings on it.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:18 pm

CMV wrote: Why do you think a gunsmith can't work on a firearm built from an 80% lower? Or a block of barstock even? They may choose not to but I can't think of a reason they would legally be prevented form doing so.

The ONLY way a FFL can interact with it(gunsmith/transfer/mail/cerakote etc...) is if it is fully engraved as it has to go in their bound book and the information has to come off the firearm.

sub-sonic · Post by **sub-sonic** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:52 pm

Bendersquint wrote: The ONLY way a FFL can interact with it(gunsmith/transfer/mail/cerakote etc...) is if it is fully engraved as it has to go in their bound book and the information has to come off the firearm.

I have several factory made guns that have very little information on them . one is a shotgun it has a very small name mark on it. "Nobel" nothing else any where on it. no serial number or part numbers, nothing. it was sold by a gun dealer and I got it from a dealer and its been in the shop to be fixed. so how did that work.
I have a few 22 rifles just with a makers name on them no serial numbers or anything

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:51 pm

sub-sonic wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: The ONLY way a FFL can interact with it(gunsmith/transfer/mail/cerakote etc...) is if it is fully engraved as it has to go in their bound book and the information has to come off the firearm.
I have several factory made guns that have very little information on them . one is a shotgun it has a very small name mark on it. "Nobel" nothing else any where on it. no serial number or part numbers, nothing. it was sold by a gun dealer and I got it from a dealer and its been in the shop to be fixed. so how did that work.
I have a few 22 rifles just with a makers name on them no serial numbers or anything

Those had to have been made before the federal marking regulations went into effect.

sub-sonic · Post by **sub-sonic** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:00 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
sub-sonic wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: The ONLY way a FFL can interact with it(gunsmith/transfer/mail/cerakote etc...) is if it is fully engraved as it has to go in their bound book and the information has to come off the firearm.
I have several factory made guns that have very little information on them . one is a shotgun it has a very small name mark on it. "Nobel" nothing else any where on it. no serial number or part numbers, nothing. it was sold by a gun dealer and I got it from a dealer and its been in the shop to be fixed. so how did that work.
I have a few 22 rifles just with a makers name on them no serial numbers or anything
Those had to have been made before the federal marking regulations went into effect.

correct. but the 1968 gca that required all manufacturers to properly mark their receivers said nothing at all about home builders hence the reason the atf suggests you mark your home build because there is no federal law requiring any form of marking on home builds for any reason. so when did it come about that home builds had to be marked to be in a dealers shop overnight

make: unknown
model: ar15 style
caliber:5.56
SN: NSN

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:26 pm

sub-sonic wrote:
correct. but the 1968 gca that required all manufacturers to properly mark their receivers said nothing at all about home builders hence the reason the atf suggests you mark your home build because there is no federal law requiring any form of marking on home builds for any reason. so when did it come about that home builds had to be marked to be in a dealers shop overnight

make: unknown
model: ar15 style
caliber:5.56
SN: NSN

Since bound books became a requirement it has been a requirement for an FFL to log into their bound book any firearms that are kept overnight(regardless the reason it is overnight....which is also the reason why a non-FFL can't work on firearms).

In order to meet ATF requirements you need to record the following data....
Manufacturer/Maker
Model
Serial Number
Type
Caliber/Gauge
Date
From whom received

All that data is taken off of the engravings from the firearm.

So if you don't have any of it engraved how does an FFL log it into his books? He can't, gotta be marked to be in the bound book.

Archilochus · Post by **Archilochus** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:35 pm

My only experience with this subject comes from trying to get local shops to heat-treat a finished "80%" M1 carbine receiver. The shops had FFL's - but would not accept the receiver for heat-treating. No specific reasons were given, other than in one case the liability thing.

telero · Post by **telero** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:37 pm

Bendersquint wrote: Since bound books became a requirement it has been a requirement for an FFL to log into their bound book any firearms that are kept overnight(regardless the reason it is overnight....which is also the reason why a non-FFL can't work on firearms).

In order to meet ATF requirements you need to record the following data....
Manufacturer/Maker
Model
Serial Number
Type
Caliber/Gauge
Date
From whom received

All that data is taken off of the engravings from the firearm.

So if you don't have any of it engraved how does an FFL log it into his books? He can't, gotta be marked to be in the bound book.

So a gunsmith could not hold any firearm overnight that was manufactured pre GCA if that firearm didn't have the currently required engravings? Why couldn't they just enter "Pre GCA firearm" in all areas? Or "No Serial Number" "No Model" "No Caliber," etc. in the appropriate areas. Same for post GCA firearms that were made (home builder), rather than manufactured (licensed manufacturer) and don't have marking requirements.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:03 pm

telero wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: Since bound books became a requirement it has been a requirement for an FFL to log into their bound book any firearms that are kept overnight(regardless the reason it is overnight....which is also the reason why a non-FFL can't work on firearms).

In order to meet ATF requirements you need to record the following data....
Manufacturer/Maker
Model
Serial Number
Type
Caliber/Gauge
Date
From whom received

All that data is taken off of the engravings from the firearm.

So if you don't have any of it engraved how does an FFL log it into his books? He can't, gotta be marked to be in the bound book.
So a gunsmith could not hold any firearm overnight that was manufactured pre GCA if that firearm didn't have the currently required engravings? Why couldn't they just enter "Pre GCA firearm" in all areas? Or "No Serial Number" "No Model" "No Caliber," etc. in the appropriate areas. Same for post GCA firearms that were made (home builder), rather than manufactured (licensed manufacturer) and don't have marking requirements.

Pre-GCA can be taken in with a justification annotation that the GCA regulation didn't exist when it was created.

Thats the only exception.....everything after that to go in the A&D needs that information.

You are correct there are no requirements for the firearm to be engraved, however without engraving it can not be logged into an A&D. It is what it is.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:06 pm

Archilochus wrote:My only experience with this subject comes from trying to get local shops to heat-treat a finished "80%" M1 carbine receiver. The shops had FFL's - but would not accept the receiver for heat-treating. No specific reasons were given, other than in one case the liability thing.

FWIW I won't take in or work on 80% or any homemade firearms either.

hotbrass · Post by **hotbrass** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:11 pm

I have a Winchester Model 69A Target with no serial number that I inherited and the rear sight was lost. So I had a gunsmith fit it with a Redfield rear sight and mount. He had it a week and it was logged in and out. I believe you just put "none" in the serial number space.

Archilochus · Post by **Archilochus** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:17 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
Archilochus wrote:My only experience with this subject comes from trying to get local shops to heat-treat a finished "80%" M1 carbine receiver. The shops had FFL's - but would not accept the receiver for heat-treating. No specific reasons were given, other than in one case the liability thing.
FWIW I won't take in or work on 80% or any homemade firearms either.

Yup - if I were in the business, I probably wouldn't either. Sad what the litigious society has done to us all.

CMV · Post by **CMV** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:48 pm

Besides my 80% stuff, I have 2 factory firearms with no serial numbers. One has no identifying marks of any kind - no manufacturer, no proof marks, no s/n, etc.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:11 pm

hotbrass wrote:I have a Winchester Model 69A Target with no serial number that I inherited and the rear sight was lost. So I had a gunsmith fit it with a Redfield rear sight and mount. He had it a week and it was logged in and out. I believe you just put "none" in the serial number space.

That was PRE-GCA.

Bendersquint · Post by **Bendersquint** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:12 pm

CMV wrote:Besides my 80% stuff, I have 2 factory firearms with no serial numbers. One has no identifying marks of any kind - no manufacturer, no proof marks, no s/n, etc.

PRE-GCA.

Everyone SHOULD be seeing a pattern here......

telero · Post by **telero** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:55 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
CMV wrote:Besides my 80% stuff, I have 2 factory firearms with no serial numbers. One has no identifying marks of any kind - no manufacturer, no proof marks, no s/n, etc.
PRE-GCA.

Everyone SHOULD be seeing a pattern here......

The pattern is not that the firearms are pre GCA, it's that they are not legally required to have markings (serial number, model, etc.). Pre GCA there was no legal requirement for manufacturers or unlicensed makers. Post GCA there is legal requirement for manufacturers, but still no legal requirement for unlicensed makers.

Not saying I disagree with your prerogative to not work on whatever you feel uncomfortable with, I'm just looking for the legal requirement. With home made firearms becoming more prevalent, the idea that someone might need a gunsmith to do work on an unserialized firearm could come up more often. This might actually be a good thing to write a letter about...

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