Another Review/critique request. 9mm boosted can.

[T-Rex]

Isn't the situation with patents closer to 'can't legally make it... for sale'? I am not a lawyer, but from a lot of readings over the years that was my understanding of both the intent and practice of patent law, to protect the patent holder from commercial infringement. Not from hobbyist made one-offs.

The purpose of a patent is to protect your intellectual property/idea from reproduction, regardless of intent.

[a_canadian]

Huh. I just went and read a few articles interpreting that aspect of patent law interpretation and it seems you are right. Well colour me educated on the matter. Thanks. Considering there is a patent on pretty well every damn thing, it seems likely the home machinist is infringing a patent every time he or she makes anything. Guess I'd better destroy my lathe, before the lawyers find me! Damn I hate lawyers...

[baba]

Yes, if you look hard enough virtually everything has been patented (not just suppressors, everything). There are companies who's sole purpose exist to patent things that someone might use someday, for something, just so when they do they can say they hold the patent and sue for their portion of the profits, plus damages. The patent system is not an ideal system, but sometimes it does work.

I'm not really sure how that affects the hobbyist. Truth is there are enough lawyers and laws that everyone could get sued for something everyday.

-Brian

[Bendersquint]

Huh. I just went and read a few articles interpreting that aspect of patent law interpretation and it seems you are right. Well colour me educated on the matter. Thanks. Considering there is a patent on pretty well every damn thing, it seems likely the home machinist is infringing a patent every time he or she makes anything. Guess I'd better destroy my lathe, before the lawyers find me! Damn I hate lawyers...

Nice thing is is that patents expire.

[Bendersquint]

The purpose of a patent is to protect your intellectual property/idea from reproduction, regardless of intent.

Correct and you beat me to it.

[Bendersquint]

Yes, if you look hard enough virtually everything has been patented (not just suppressors, everything). There are companies who's sole purpose exist to patent things that someone might use someday, for something, just so when they do they can say they hold the patent and sue for their portion of the profits, plus damages. The patent system is not an ideal system, but sometimes it does work.

I'm not really sure how that affects the hobbyist. Truth is there are enough lawyers and laws that everyone could get sued for something everyday.

-Brian

I have a customer that brags about buying internet domains, the second companies come out with products, he hears insider chatter you name it, he buys the domain and oddly enough ohe then sells the domain to the party making the product, and does good at it....its his sole source of income and he has more NFA than some museums!

How does it affect the hobbyist????? As said above patents protect the object from being made, hobbyist, tinkerer, manufacturer, company, .gov etc.....if its patented and the patent hasn't expired NOONE but the patent hold and their licensees can fabricate it.

[a_canadian]

So I suppose no one has patented the K baffle? Or the conically deformed freeze plug baffle? Because hey, if they have there's going to be a whole lot of suing going on, and it won't just be hobbyist Form 1 builders because practically every suppressor company makes at least 1 K can.

[Bendersquint]

So I suppose no one has patented the K baffle? Or the conically deformed freeze plug baffle? Because hey, if they have there's going to be a whole lot of suing going on, and it won't just be hobbyist Form 1 builders because practically every suppressor company makes at least 1 K can.

Yes the K was patented and has expired. The only K variant that is patented that I can think of is the Tirant style baffle.

[Kuraki]

Well, I certainly don't intend to cause any distress to the forum over IP. And given that there are recent patents on things that could be construed as K baffles, Cone baffles, K-Cone hybrids, Monocores, etc, I'll just keep my projects to myself and off line.

[mpallett]

There is that "patented baffle" that you would need to work around. Sure, you can take it apart yourself. You are still into the $200 F1 paperwork. 5x the costs? I know what it costs to make a Trident if you do a large run of them and I will tell you that the 5x margin is not there. Maybe if you just consider materials sure. I take it you have a full up machine shop and can do everything? Your time is free? What happens when you find that your design doesn't work well because you are missing some critical feature in the baffle design? (I see issues with your Omega Baffles that will affect the reduction). As a F1 "maker" you can't just go back and redo them unless you are an 07 Manufacturer. Are you? You don't say.

Go with the CTA style baffles. They work a bit better and keep the tube clean. Or just buy an Octane 9mm or Tirant 9mm.

I guess the real questions are:

Are you trying to save money?
Do you want the challenge and satisfaction of turning metal into something that works?
Do you just want a really good silencer?

Or you could just buy a Trident and have someone jailbreak it for you.

Even if I did want to wait for a paper form and spend 5x as much, why wouldn't I crack it open myself? I have zero interest in purchasing cans, dealing with SOTs I don't know, or driving halfway across the state to deal with them.

[Kuraki]

There is that "patented baffle" that you would need to work around. Sure, you can take it apart yourself. You are still into the $200 F1 paperwork. 5x the costs? I know what it costs to make a Trident if you do a large run of them and I will tell you that the 5x margin is not there. Maybe if you just consider materials sure. I take it you have a full up machine shop and can do everything? Your time is free? What happens when you find that your design doesn't work well because you are missing some critical feature in the baffle design? (I see issues with your Omega Baffles that will affect the reduction). As a F1 "maker" you can't just go back and redo them unless you are an 07 Manufacturer. Are you? You don't say.

Go with the CTA style baffles. They work a bit better and keep the tube clean. Or just buy an Octane 9mm or Tirant 9mm.

I guess the real questions are:

Are you trying to save money?
Do you want the challenge and satisfaction of turning metal into something that works?
Do you just want a really good silencer?

Look, I'm not trying to bust your balls on pricing. I do have a full machine shop, and I understand probably better than you think what margins are. But cost to me, with dealer transfer fees and purchase price is, yes close to 5x material cost. The question about what's my time worth is moot. I make things for a living because I like making things, and the process of making a suppressor, or a rifle, or anything else is as much a part of my hobby as using the end product. Time spent driving, the aggravation of dealing with dealers, etc, is not what I consider "free time" and simply adds, in my personal value proposition, to the expense of a commercial can. And I can't stand waiting 6 months on a paper form when I can wait 1 month for an E Form, but that's just icing on the cake for why I choose to make.

If what I design and build isn't as effective as I hoped, then I've got a learning experience for the next form I submit. As much as I wish I could "tinker" with one form, I also wish to obey the laws. I'm not an SOT. I have no desire to be "in the business of..."

So to answer your three questions:
Yes, if you consider cash out of pocket only, which I do because it's a hobby
Yes
Yes, but it's my 3rd priority. I'd rather have something I build, myself, that's 90% as effective as what I could purchase, than the commercial product.

Frankly, knowing what I know about machining, margins, material costs, R&D expenses, and all the other variables that go into a manufacturing business, I'm surprised people like you are able to sell your products as inexpensively as you do.

But whether I make or don't make, I'm not a potential customer. The only reason I own 2 commercial cans is because Griffin gave them to me at ridiculous closeout prices when they were first launching. Other than those two, if I don't make them, I just won't have them.

[T-Rex]

I'm surprised people like you are able to sell your products as inexpensively as you do.

Shhh!


mpallett
I enjoy my Octane very much.

[mpallett]

I would say thanks, but SiCo took all that over.

I'm looking to get back in myself working on some designs.

I'm surprised people like you are able to sell your products as inexpensively as you do.

Shhh!

mpallett
I enjoy my Octane very much.

[mpallett]

Perfect answer. Now I think we all know where you are coming from. Do I have skin in this game anymore? Nope, I'm out. So do what you want, buy or make what you want.

Be well and Happy New Year.

There is that "patented baffle" that you would need to work around. Sure, you can take it apart yourself. You are still into the $200 F1 paperwork. 5x the costs? I know what it costs to make a Trident if you do a large run of them and I will tell you that the 5x margin is not there. Maybe if you just consider materials sure. I take it you have a full up machine shop and can do everything? Your time is free? What happens when you find that your design doesn't work well because you are missing some critical feature in the baffle design? (I see issues with your Omega Baffles that will affect the reduction). As a F1 "maker" you can't just go back and redo them unless you are an 07 Manufacturer. Are you? You don't say.

Go with the CTA style baffles. They work a bit better and keep the tube clean. Or just buy an Octane 9mm or Tirant 9mm.

I guess the real questions are:

Are you trying to save money?
Do you want the challenge and satisfaction of turning metal into something that works?
Do you just want a really good silencer?

Look, I'm not trying to bust your balls on pricing. I do have a full machine shop, and I understand probably better than you think what margins are. But cost to me, with dealer transfer fees and purchase price is, yes close to 5x material cost. The question about what's my time worth is moot. I make things for a living because I like making things, and the process of making a suppressor, or a rifle, or anything else is as much a part of my hobby as using the end product. Time spent driving, the aggravation of dealing with dealers, etc, is not what I consider "free time" and simply adds, in my personal value proposition, to the expense of a commercial can. And I can't stand waiting 6 months on a paper form when I can wait 1 month for an E Form, but that's just icing on the cake for why I choose to make.

If what I design and build isn't as effective as I hoped, then I've got a learning experience for the next form I submit. As much as I wish I could "tinker" with one form, I also wish to obey the laws. I'm not an SOT. I have no desire to be "in the business of..."

So to answer your three questions:
Yes, if you consider cash out of pocket only, which I do because it's a hobby
Yes
Yes, but it's my 3rd priority. I'd rather have something I build, myself, that's 90% as effective as what I could purchase, than the commercial product.

Frankly, knowing what I know about machining, margins, material costs, R&D expenses, and all the other variables that go into a manufacturing business, I'm surprised people like you are able to sell your products as inexpensively as you do.

But whether I make or don't make, I'm not a potential customer. The only reason I own 2 commercial cans is because Griffin gave them to me at ridiculous closeout prices when they were first launching. Other than those two, if I don't make them, I just won't have them.

[gunny50]

Go with the CTA style baffles. They work a bit better and keep the tube clean. Or just buy an Octane 9mm or Tirant 9mm.

CTA Style? They work better than K's?


MPALLET will you be at Shot?

Question is whom of you all will be at Shot 2015?

Gunny

[mpallett]

I will be at SHOT, wondering around for all 4 days. Fat bald guy (there will be thousands of us ...)

I think different baffle styles have different advantages / disadvantages depending on what the goals of that suppressor are.

Go with the CTA style baffles. They work a bit better and keep the tube clean. Or just buy an Octane 9mm or Tirant 9mm.

CTA Style? They work better than K's?


MPALLET will you be at Shot?

Question is whom of you all will be at Shot 2015?

Gunny

[Bendersquint]

Go with the CTA style baffles. They work a bit better and keep the tube clean. Or just buy an Octane 9mm or Tirant 9mm.

CTA Style? They work better than K's?


MPALLET will you be at Shot?

Question is whom of you all will be at Shot 2015?

Gunny

Every baffle design has its merits and is beneficial in its own way, all depends on the end result you are seeking.

[T-Rex]

I think different baffle styles have different advantages / disadvantages depending on what the goals of that suppressor are.

Every baffle design has its merits and is beneficial in its own way, all depends on the end result you are seeking.

Wow, you 2 are either politicians in the making or in sales!

Go with the CTA style baffles. They work a bit better and keep the tube clean. Or just buy an Octane 9mm or Tirant 9mm.

CTA Style? They work better than K's?

The CTA or Click Together Assembly keeps the gases and powder from reaching the inner wall of the outer tube.

I've shot both the Tirant and Octane 9mm, with light and heavy projectiles.
They have distinctly different sounds from one another.
While both were exceptional at their intended purpose, to my ear, the Octane had a bit more pleasing sound.
As for the tone, with heavies:
Tirant = Basketball getting thrown against a concrete wall
Octane = Deflated Basketball thrown against a concrete wall.

[Bendersquint]

Wow, you 2 are either politicians in the making or in sales!

Nope, just a silencer manufacturers.

[mpallett]

Wow, you 2 are either politicians in the making or in sales!

Not sure if I should be offended or thank you. I AM in sales. My day job is a Technical Sales Engineer for a large bandwidth provider that caters to large banks, ISPs, and broadcast TV. I also design and manufacture suppressors.

I will say that over the years with testing and with SWR I've learned that intended use of the suppressor can govern the design. There really isn't a "once size fits all". Is it for subsonic? Is it for supersonic? High pressure / Low pressure round, etc.

For example, I have a modified HEMSII on a 45 ACP Encore (can on the left). I shoot 250 grain LC projectiles at just over 1000 fps. It is silly quiet. It is a tiny bit quieter with the Octane HD (middle). The can on the left is an Omega300 that did not make QC that I EDM'd with a bore of 0.500. It is much longer ad 1.5" OD. It is louder than the other two with the same loads. I'm waiting on my 458 Socom barrel to come back and I'll try all of the above with them for subsonic rounds.

The cans has different uses, different baffles, etc. Which is the best one? It depends on what my intent is with them.