First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!

[baba]

The more i read through that, the more it sounds like it is targeted at machine shops and FFLs who make money helping people convert their 80% receivers in to actual guns. I'm sure in collateral damage it sweeps up the guys who charge machine or tooling time to use their home CNCs to help friends out.

But it does also seem to revolve around money or something changing hands in exchange for the use of the machines.

-Brian

[cpy911]

If I read this correctly, if you are a business or in the business (business: the practice of making one's living by engaging in commerce) of making firearms, you have to have a license to do so. If you are a business NOT making firearms, you don't need a license. However, if you are any type of business and you allow others to use your equipment to make firearms, and start to make a livelihood from it, that is a problem as you are now making firearms and you need a license.

If you are not a business or not engaged in business you can let others borrow your hobby not for business personal use only equipment to make firearm parts.

So, you could use your friends lathe so long as he is not in business using his lathe for any business venture. If it is hobby or personal use, you can use it. That is how I read it.

ATF:
"Any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon ... which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “ firearm,” must be licensed as a
manufacturer under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA); identify (mark) any such firearm; and
maintain required manufacturer’s records.

A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and record keeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery or equipment. ATF Ruling 2010"

"As defined by section 921(a)(21)(A), the term “engaged in the business” means, as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, “a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.”"

[T-Rex]

You guys are missing this part, right here:

"However, when a person performs machining or other manufacturing process on a blank to make a firearm “frame or receiver,” or on an existing frame or receiver to make it suitable for use1 as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” that person has performed a manufacturing operation other than what is contemplated by the GCA of dealer-gunsmiths"

They are defining the average home hobby/smith as a manufacturer de facto.
They're just cinching the noose, one knot at a time.

[fastfire]

My take;
Common sense says they are tightening the screws to make it more difficult for some or as many as possible to manufacture legally.
This is not the goberment for the people.

[baba]

That part seems to be there to differentiate what a gunsmith does as compared to what a 'manufacturer' does. At least that is what it seems like when you read the whole document head to toe. It was already outside the lines to make an 80% receiver functional that was not for your use. I.E. make it for someone else.

The tightening here seems to be that you can't pay to use someone else's tools and/or supervision to make it for yourself anymore.

Brian

[whiterussian1974]

The tightening here seems to be that you can't pay to use someone else's tools and/or supervision to make it for yourself anymore.

Seems that way to me, too.

[Bendersquint]

The tightening here seems to be that you can't pay to use someone else's tools and/or supervision to make it for yourself anymore.

Brian

Did you know that the ATF in the past has considered "good conversation" as a form of compensation.

They have also said that even if the compensation was unintended simply by answering a question or being helpful that it can be considered "compensation".

[whiterussian1974]

Did you know that the ATF in the past has considered "good conversation" as a form of compensation.
They have also said that even if the compensation was unintended simply by answering a question or being helpful that it can be considered "compensation".

A Smile, Handwave, Handshake, Compliment and "Goodwill" are also valid forms of compensation.

[hotbrass]

Just like love and affection!

[whiterussian1974]

Just like love and affection!

You may be joking. But I had a CPA friend that amortized the price of "affection" by the hour. He said that (depending upon yr and Region) a wife cost around $235, a girlfriend around $318-720, and a "Profession" varies between $35-5000. But usually the "Pro" only charges over $100/hr if it's for a "special" or a woman that normally wouldn't even talk to that guy for less than $200/hr.

He also said that the main difference is that a Pro often charges piecemeal, whereas a wife gets a salary regardless of performance.
And the Girlfriend is like a Lawyer. Demands a Retainer upfront, then bills you for Future Services not yet performed or received.

[hotbrass]

I have been in the land business for many years and one of the elements required for a legal real estate transaction(in Texas) is consideration. I have seen many deeds for the consideration of "love and affection." I have also seen gift deeds for the consideration of " my own satisfaction", "mutual interest", "all good intentions", and many other tangibles and intangibles.

Consideration can be anything that can be identified.

[whiterussian1974]

hotbrass:
True. Until the 1980s a handshake was a standard Real Estate Deposit. There have been many Civil Cases where the Burden was on the Claimant/Petitioner to prove that the handshake didn't take place if attempting to nullify a Financial Transaction. Some Courts held that a handshake was of equal value to both Parties, so no benefit accrued.
Then $1 was used as the Standard Benefit. Some people would even record the USD Serial# on the Bill of Sale or Contract with All Parties signing attestation that the dollar transferred ownership.
Because of Inflation(and other reasons), Business Schools (such as Ks State, Washburn University, Wesleyan Methodist, etc) began advising that $10 should be the standard for showing Cause at Hearings for Redress of Inequality or Disparity.

(Sidenote: Are they still planning to print Obama Trillion $ Coins on Unicorn horn?)

[joe0121]

Man, Screw the ATF.

[gunny50]

They have also said that even if the compensation was unintended simply by answering a question or being helpful that it can be considered "compensation".

So is this the end of ST?
And when not residing in the US, will I be safe to give pointers?
Just to be sure that when I travel into US to see friends and visit Shot that I will be able to travel home again?



Gunny

[NickAAC]

How would this apply to me sending my lower off to get engraved? Do I have to hand engrave my lowers now? I will, and have before, but that is not good.

[WhisperFan]

How would this apply to me sending my lower off to get engraved? Do I have to hand engrave my lowers now? I will, and have before, but that is not good.

Just leave them bare!

[CMV]

How would this apply to me sending my lower off to get engraved? Do I have to hand engrave my lowers now? I will, and have before, but that is not good.

Just leave them bare!

Unless he's making an SBR out of it

[Bendersquint]

How would this apply to me sending my lower off to get engraved? Do I have to hand engrave my lowers now? I will, and have before, but that is not good.

You are fine sending it off for engraving as the firearm is already made.

Embellishment and Engraving are still gunsmith activities.

[whiterussian1974]

I could weight in w MANY loopholes in this Law. As Written, not w respect to which Cases they will chose to Prosecute.
But I'm holding my Online Mouth to not give any Agency Beurocrats any suggestions on how to further screw the American People. You know, those of us that Gov't is founded to Protect!

Until the American People choose to practice Jury Nullification, we deserve the Gov't that we not only enable, but continue to grow through our Taxes!

[Bendersquint]

They have also said that even if the compensation was unintended simply by answering a question or being helpful that it can be considered "compensation".

So is this the end of ST?
And when not residing in the US, will I be safe to give pointers?
Just to be sure that when I travel into US to see friends and visit Shot that I will be able to travel home again?



Gunny

Not the end of SilencerTalk, its the end of building your parts on someone elses equipment.....make a home made can LITERALLY a home made can.

[mr fixit]

While I don't in any way agree with the ruling in as much as it causes further infringement on 'We the People', I have to ask does this really pertain to us in regard to suppressors?

I think the reasons for the ruling are pretty obvious....Lots of guys get together at a machine shop who has a CNC machine and put a 80% receiver in and push the button, thereby 'manufacturing' a firearm, then all sit around and build this receiver into an AR-15. They have effectively built a receiver without a serial number, and created a firearm that has not had the excise tax paid.

However, in our case with suppressors, before we build or have a buddy at the machine shop do anything, we have already paid the $200 to get the Form1 approved, thereby getting permission to build. So when we start, we have already paid the tax, and registered the firearm (a suppressor is a firearm).

In my mind it looks a little like apples and oranges. Am I way off base?

[propeine]

Keep your mouth shut and your head low. A poorly written bureaucratic law that was likely intended to eliminate making money off of "build parties" extended to screw anyone who wanted to use another man's equipment. Largely unenforceable on a small scale (not build parties) and likely unconstitutional if ever challenged.

Also how does this affect the wording from the NFA handbook as produced by the ATF

From section 6.4
If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm,
the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a
premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done
under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the
firearm. If the location is outside the applicant’s State and the firearm being made is a short barreled
rifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device, or an unserviceable machinegun which is being
reactivated, the applicant will also need to request permission to transport the firearm interstate as
required by 27 CFR 478.28.

There is also this little gem at the end along with all the wording I could see of part of a weapon that can fire a projectile.

Held further, this ruling is limited to an interpretation of the requirements imposed on
persons under the GCA, and does not interpret the requirements of the National Firearms Act, 26
U.S.C. 5801 et. seq.

[Bendersquint]

While I don't in any way agree with the ruling in as much as it causes further infringement on 'We the People', I have to ask does this really pertain to us in regard to suppressors?

I think the reasons for the ruling are pretty obvious....Lots of guys get together at a machine shop who has a CNC machine and put a 80% receiver in and push the button, thereby 'manufacturing' a firearm, then all sit around and build this receiver into an AR-15. They have effectively built a receiver without a serial number, and created a firearm that has not had the excise tax paid.

However, in our case with suppressors, before we build or have a buddy at the machine shop do anything, we have already paid the $200 to get the Form1 approved, thereby getting permission to build. So when we start, we have already paid the tax, and registered the firearm (a suppressor is a firearm).

In my mind it looks a little like apples and oranges. Am I way off base?

Yes you are off base.

Its not about whether or not something has tax paid/registered or a serial number on it. I do not recall a single mention about taxes/excise/FAET or even tax stamps in the ruling though I will read it again.

Silencers and silencer parts are classified as firearms by federal law. This applies to silencers and silencer parts BECAUSE of that classification.

[whiterussian1974]

Can you imagine if our current System of Laws was in place during the 1770s?
There would be Informants in every Pub, Printing Press and Post Office. They would cart "Trouble Makers" from CT down to VA to "Rendition." And any Church speaking against the Crown would be burned to the ground w all Witnesses inside to prevent "Bad Press and Rumors." Show Trials accusing Preachers and School Teachers of being Terrorists and planting Homemade Bombs.

We deserve the Bohemoth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(book) that we created by feeding a Monster that we didn't even attempt to control.
We pay taxes, but how many get involved w local and Regional Politics? We watch Pro Sports and support our Teams by buying Gear, Tickets and generating Ad Revinue. But do we buy GOP/DEM/Green Tshirts sold by those Parties?
Why don't we have Ted Cruz, or Eric Holder Jerseys that support their causes?
Just some food for thought.

[whiterussian1974]

There are PLENTY of shirts, apparel, stickers, etc supporting Trevon trying to beating someone to death; Mike Brown shoving and Strongarm Robbing a little old man and then trying to beat a cop to death for asking him to not walk in the street?
Even Pro Sports Teams got into the "Hands UP, Don't Shoot!" controversy. How many Fans stopped supporting those teams?
Yet Conserv Talk Radio and TV Personalities lose Sponcers and get fired for the smallest offenses.
And Al Sharpton has a 100% history of being a preditor who always charges Extortion to go away even though his "Clients" are always the wrongdoers. SHAME!!!