First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
So here's an interesting thought. As far as I understand it, to get an 07 FFL (etc) the ATF has some requirements that must be met in order for the applicant to qualify as being "in the business" etc, etc.
So if they are now defining relatively trivial forms of compensation, or simply temporarily renting out shop space or tooling as being "in the [firearms] business", wouldn't that punch a hole in the FFL licensing requirements? Seems like that would broaden the idea of "in the business" far enough that almost anything would then meet the expectations of being "in the business" ???
So if they are now defining relatively trivial forms of compensation, or simply temporarily renting out shop space or tooling as being "in the [firearms] business", wouldn't that punch a hole in the FFL licensing requirements? Seems like that would broaden the idea of "in the business" far enough that almost anything would then meet the expectations of being "in the business" ???
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
No it wouldn't change the requirements.Archilochus wrote:So here's an interesting thought. As far as I understand it, to get an 07 FFL (etc) the ATF has some requirements that must be met in order for the applicant to qualify as being "in the business" etc, etc.
So if they are now defining relatively trivial forms of compensation, or simply temporarily renting out shop space or tooling as being "in the [firearms] business", wouldn't that punch a hole in the FFL licensing requirements? Seems like that would broaden the idea of "in the business" far enough that almost anything would then meet the expectations of being "in the business" ???
Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Bendersquint wrote:No it wouldn't change the requirements.Archilochus wrote:So here's an interesting thought. As far as I understand it, to get an 07 FFL (etc) the ATF has some requirements that must be met in order for the applicant to qualify as being "in the business" etc, etc.
So if they are now defining relatively trivial forms of compensation, or simply temporarily renting out shop space or tooling as being "in the [firearms] business", wouldn't that punch a hole in the FFL licensing requirements? Seems like that would broaden the idea of "in the business" far enough that almost anything would then meet the expectations of being "in the business" ???
You are much better versed in legality of things than me. Can you explain how they can possibly have it both ways? Can't possibly hold up in court then can it?
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
whiterussian1974 wrote:I could weight in w MANY loopholes in this Law. As Written, not w respect to which Cases they will chose to Prosecute.
But I'm holding my Online Mouth to not give any Agency Beurocrats any suggestions on how to further screw the American People.
This is one of the reasons I get so aggravated when we have a member with 2 posts asking a question that's answered fifty times over on page two ect of the forum... No clue if they are legit persons interested or if they are phishing..
"A man is known by the silence he keeps. - Oliver Herford"
"Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot..."
"Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot..."
Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Your BATF sounds like a new form of "geheime staatspolizei"
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
So I suppose this means I can't have my local engraving shop engrave my SBR anymore?
Is that correct?
Is that correct?
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
No can still hire out engraving because the firearm is already made and engraved.BlwnGazkit wrote:So I suppose this means I can't have my local engraving shop engrave my SBR anymore?
Is that correct?
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Bendersquint wrote:No can still hire out engraving because the firearm is already made and engraved.BlwnGazkit wrote:So I suppose this means I can't have my local engraving shop engrave my SBR anymore?
Is that correct?
OK that makes more sense, thanks!
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Aber naturlich mein Freund! Unser HeimatSicherheitsDienst ist nur ein ander Amt des geheim Staatspolizei.Subsonic wrote:Your BATF sounds like a new form of "geheime staatspolizei"
Und das "Patroit Act" ist Ermächtigungsgesetzj unter einer andere Name.
(Sorry about my poor Grammer. I haven't spoken German for nearly 20 years.)
Last edited by whiterussian1974 on Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Remember, Gov argued that OmabaCare wasn't a tax 1st day in front of SCOTUS. Then reversed itself, stated that it WAS a Tax the 2nd day once the 1st Motion was over. (For SHAME!!!)Bendersquint wrote:No it wouldn't change the requirements.Archilochus wrote:So here's an interesting thought. As far as I understand it, to get an 07 FFL (etc) the ATF has some requirements that must be met in order for the applicant to qualify as being "in the business" etc, etc.
So if they are now defining relatively trivial forms of compensation, or simply temporarily renting out shop space or tooling as being "in the [firearms] business", wouldn't that punch a hole in the FFL licensing requirements? Seems like that would broaden the idea of "in the business" far enough that almost anything would then meet the expectations of being "in the business" ???
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135314
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135314
Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Well I read the ruling twice and read through these three pages of the thread. It appears to apply to businesses and individuals who assist other unlicensed persons while making a firearm.
I thought the last three paragraphs were the "meat" of the ruling, the preceding paragraphs were merely a justification of the ruling. Since I'm not engaged in a business and merely allowing use of my lathe, does this ruling still apply to me? Thanks.
Randy
Does it also apply to a person to comes to my garage and uses my tools without my assistance to make a firearm? I'm not being compensated in any way for the use of my lathe. By making a firearm on my lathe I'm not engaged in a business.Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records.
Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment.
I thought the last three paragraphs were the "meat" of the ruling, the preceding paragraphs were merely a justification of the ruling. Since I'm not engaged in a business and merely allowing use of my lathe, does this ruling still apply to me? Thanks.
Randy
SilencerTalk was a place I could disccuss making registered silencers without being told I was a criminal. That is no longer true. http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=99273
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
It will take Test Cases to show how far they plan to reach. The simple answer is that private Individuals not engaged in Commercial Sales or Service should be exempt.ranb wrote:Well I read the ruling twice and read through these three pages of the thread. It appears to apply to businesses and individuals who assist other unlicensed persons while making a firearm.Does it also apply to a person to comes to my garage and uses my tools without my assistance to make a firearm? I'm not being compensated in any way for the use of my lathe. By making a firearm on my lathe I'm not engaged in a business.Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records.
Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment.
I thought the last three paragraphs were the "meat" of the ruling, the preceding paragraphs were merely a justification of the ruling. Since I'm not engaged in a business and merely allowing use of my lathe, does this ruling still apply to me? Thanks.
But... As Bender might say, they could grab your 3 month old daughter out of her crib and charge her w Conspiracy while she sits in Gitmo if they so chose. And he'd be right.
Kill Lists, Drone Strikes on entire families viewed as "more humane" than Military Tribunals...Caesar can do whatever he chooses until The People choose to practice Civil Disobedience and Jury Nullification.
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Yeah, I tend to forget that reason and sense do not apply in their worldwhiterussian1974 wrote:Remember, Gov argued that OmabaCare wasn't a tax 1st day in front of SCOTUS. Then reversed itself, stated that it WAS a Tax the 2nd day once the 1st Motion was over. (For SHAME!!!)
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
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Last edited by 0101silent on Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Can I still have a tube threaded by a machine shop for a suppressor?
Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
I would disagree that this affects Form 1 can builders on the following two points:
1. While silencers are "firearms" according to the GCA, the ruling goes and defines "firearms" for the purpose of the ruling as, paraphrasing, "...designed to expel a projectile by..." which a silencer of course is not. Had they simply used the term "firearm" as defined by the law, I would agree it includes silencers. Because the ruling's definition is limited to actual firearms, I contend it doesn't pertain to silencers.
2. The entire premise of the ruling is to keep businesses from not properly identifying, marking, and recording the manufacture of firearms. A Form 1 silencer is marked by the makers name, city and state, as well as registered with the NFA via the Form, there's obviously zero intent during the lawful manufacture of a F1 can to create unmarked firearms.
This is of course just my opinion, and completely worthless, as we all know the ATF can say the ruling means whatever they decide based on the wind speed or temperature of the day. Their rulings are what they will prosecute people for as unlawful and not necessarily what a court will find to be unlawful. The unfortunate side of that of course is the time, wealth, and risk associated with being the test case to prove the point.
1. While silencers are "firearms" according to the GCA, the ruling goes and defines "firearms" for the purpose of the ruling as, paraphrasing, "...designed to expel a projectile by..." which a silencer of course is not. Had they simply used the term "firearm" as defined by the law, I would agree it includes silencers. Because the ruling's definition is limited to actual firearms, I contend it doesn't pertain to silencers.
2. The entire premise of the ruling is to keep businesses from not properly identifying, marking, and recording the manufacture of firearms. A Form 1 silencer is marked by the makers name, city and state, as well as registered with the NFA via the Form, there's obviously zero intent during the lawful manufacture of a F1 can to create unmarked firearms.
This is of course just my opinion, and completely worthless, as we all know the ATF can say the ruling means whatever they decide based on the wind speed or temperature of the day. Their rulings are what they will prosecute people for as unlawful and not necessarily what a court will find to be unlawful. The unfortunate side of that of course is the time, wealth, and risk associated with being the test case to prove the point.
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Yes because the firearm is already made.0101silent wrote:Would I legally be able to have my Form 1 Silencer Tube laser engraved at a local trophy shop?
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
I've got a meeting in the morning with ATF If there are any questions anyone would like me to ask to clarify let me know.
"A man is known by the silence he keeps. - Oliver Herford"
"Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot..."
"Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot..."
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Meeting with local ATF or meeting with NFA Branch legal counsel?john.t.little1 wrote:I've got a meeting in the morning with ATF If there are any questions anyone would like me to ask to clarify let me know.
If its not the latter then you are simply wasting your time.
Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
Please ask if this ruling applies to an unlicensed person who allows another individual to use their tools without compensation. Thanks.john.t.little1 wrote:I've got a meeting in the morning with ATF If there are any questions anyone would like me to ask to clarify let me know.
Ranb
SilencerTalk was a place I could disccuss making registered silencers without being told I was a criminal. That is no longer true. http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=99273
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
It won't matter to you as its an interpretation from local enforcers.....UNLESS his meeting it with NFA Branch legal counsel....which I highly doubt.ranb wrote:Please ask if this ruling applies to an unlicensed person who allows another individual to use their tools without compensation. Thanks.john.t.little1 wrote:I've got a meeting in the morning with ATF If there are any questions anyone would like me to ask to clarify let me know.
Ranb
Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
I sure wish the universal opposite of Bloomberg would challenge all this BS.
My view of ATF:
Like a mean parent. You don't want to ask them any questions in case there was something you could previously get away with. Am I allowed to listen to my music loud when nobody else is home? Why ask and be told no? But you can't ask Mom you have to ask Dad and Dad isn't going to talk to you because he's too busy and important. But at any time they can decide your car is no longer allowed to be parked in the driveway or you're grounded.
Not how the framers intended it in my opinion and if someone had the money I'm pretty sure you could get all these BS rulings thrown out and maybe more.
My view of ATF:
Like a mean parent. You don't want to ask them any questions in case there was something you could previously get away with. Am I allowed to listen to my music loud when nobody else is home? Why ask and be told no? But you can't ask Mom you have to ask Dad and Dad isn't going to talk to you because he's too busy and important. But at any time they can decide your car is no longer allowed to be parked in the driveway or you're grounded.
Not how the framers intended it in my opinion and if someone had the money I'm pretty sure you could get all these BS rulings thrown out and maybe more.
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
It's the local guy but I'm sure he will be able to call me with the answer....
"A man is known by the silence he keeps. - Oliver Herford"
"Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot..."
"Gunpowder, treason and plot. I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot..."
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Re: First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!
john.t.little1 wrote:It's the local guy but I'm sure he will be able to call me with the answer....
Bet if you ask 4 different local IOI's they will all have different answers.
I know an IOI down souththat say that uncut tubing is a silencer because of the intention.
I know an IOI in TX that says the tubing doesn't matter until its ready to be sold as without internals its nothing but a tube and not a silencer.
My local IOI says it needs to be engraved as soon as it is cut to the desired length and threaded even if I have no internals or idea of what goes inside.
You can NOT base what is correct based on local IOI, you want answers you need to the horse itself....NFA Branch.