First ATF Ruling of 2015......applies to everyone in this forum!

[Bendersquint]

Here it is guys, applies to everyone here....ATF is tightening the ropes again on who can make them/work on them/finish homemade firearms and it applies to NFA items as well.....

Anyone that helps finish a homemade firearm is now considered IN THE BUSINESS if you are using machines that they own and under their domain.

This would also apply to making Form1 NFA items etc.....that just severely limited WHO can help you on your can......makes it truly a home made item.

No more going to a local machine shop or YOUR machine shop(employer) and assisting in finishing it.....now they have to be licensee's!

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/ ... ithing.pdf

"Held further,a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment."

This is BAD!

[LostintheAOs]

I already spot a loop hole, but it would only work with guys you are good friends with.

And is a serious pain in the ass, which makes it not really worth it

[Bendersquint]

I already spot a loop hole, but it would only work with guys you are good friends with.

Not if they owned the business that owned the equipment.....you would have to buy all the tooling AND take it all with you when you leave, as leaving a used tool behind could be considered compensation.

You replace a used endmill with a new endmill and there is compensation and loophole closed

[LostintheAOs]

I already spot a loop hole, but it would only work with guys you are good friends with.

Not if they owned the business that owned the equipment.

ATF has said in the past that CONVERSATION could be considered compensation.90

Bill of sale and movement to your place (garage, etc.) hence the good friends and big pain in the ass. Bill of sale back to them afterwards (pain in the ass again). Easier to just get my own mill and lathe.

ETA, obviously this would only work with smaller equipment, pain in the ass none the less

[Bendersquint]

I already spot a loop hole, but it would only work with guys you are good friends with.

Not if they owned the business that owned the equipment.

ATF has said in the past that CONVERSATION could be considered compensation.90

Bill of sale and movement to your place (garage, etc.) hence the good friends and big pain in the ass. Bill of sale back to them afterwards (pain in the ass again). Easier to just get my own mill and lathe.

Willing to bet that the ATF would see that as a form of straw purchase....something to get around the ruling. Would end up in a further clarification and more restrictions.

[LostintheAOs]

Willing to bet that the ATF would see that as a form of straw purchase....something to get around the ruling. Would end up in a further clarification and more restrictions.

Just like a lot of stuff with the .gov, it's all good until someone gets caught skirting by, then gets squashed and all suffer. Just like build parties using a CNC, everybody gets together, chips in a small fee and pushes the button for their lower receiver.

[Bendersquint]

Willing to bet that the ATF would see that as a form of straw purchase....something to get around the ruling. Would end up in a further clarification and more restrictions.

Just like a lot of stuff with the .gov, it's all good until someone gets caught skirting by, then gets squashed and all suffer. Just like build parties using a CNC, everybody gets together, chips in a small fee and pushes the button for their lower receiver.

Yup, no more build parties.

[LostintheAOs]

Thankfully the only thing I need to "borrow" for my proposed builds is a large enough lathe to turn down my barrels for my integrals. I don't need it for anything NFA, I have a drill press and mini lathe for that work.

[CMV]

Thanks for the heads-up!

Sounds like it is about receivers - 80% AR lowers for example. Seemed to also be geared toward businesses.

SO if I offer to let someone come turn some baffles on my lathe or finish an 80% lower on my mill using my jigs - things I've offered numerous times - I (and they) would still be OK as long as they aren't paying me for the use of the machines? Or they could use the lathe for silencer parts but not the mill for the 80% lower?

I hope the next administration and AG pull back on the reins some. Not just ATF - all these alphabet agencies are out of control with restrictions and redefining what is 'legal'.

[Historian]

Glad the manpower and the money expanded on focusing on these
minutiae were not wasted on closing the 700 mile Southern Border
where real crime is arriving. When California is issuing drivers
licenses to the illegals will they also be given preferences with no proof necessary
if they apply for an NFA manufacturing license. Oh, they
do not need one. Silly me.

Humorous thought, will an illegal alien caught breaking these ATF
rules get a pass from Holder? As New England talk show host Howie Carr
often says " ... I just want to be treated like an illegal alien if
I break the law".

New Congress. New Mike Huckabee President. New culling/buy-outs in
Bureaus. A guy can dream this New Year, can he not?

[baba]

So my bro and I bought a lathe and mill together. Split the cost of each. One is at his basement, the other in mine because they won't both fit in the same house. I wonder how that complicates things? I suppose we could put them both as property of the trust....

[Bendersquint]

So my bro and I bought a lathe and mill together. Split the cost of each. One is at his basement, the other in mine because they won't both fit in the same house. I wonder how that complicates things? I suppose we could put them both as property of the trust....

If you were both on the trust then it would be fine as you are using trust owned equipment to make trust owned items.

[L1A1Rocker]

If all the equipment is owned by a Trust, and all parties using the equipment are on the Trust. . . .

[Bendersquint]

If all the equipment is owned by a Trust, and all parties using the equipment are on the Trust. . . .

I am surethat loophole will be eliminated....besides, who is going to create a trust to make an AR15 or AK47 at a build party?

Most importantly it eliminates the use of local machine shops that are not licensed as an FFL.

[whiterussian1974]

Glad the manpower and the money expanded on focusing on these
minutiae were not wasted on closing the 700 mile Southern Border
where real crime is arriving. When California is issuing drivers
licenses to the illegals will they also be given preferences with no proof necessary
if they apply for an NFA manufacturing license. Oh, they
do not need one. Silly me.

Humorous thought, will an illegal alien caught breaking these ATF
rules get a pass from Holder? As New England talk show host Howie Carr
often says " ... I just want to be treated like an illegal alien if
I break the law".

New Congress. New Mike Huckabee President. New culling/buy-outs in
Bureaus. A guy can dream this New Year, can he not?

Don't forget Texas and many other States (If I can even use the term Sovereign State under the Feudal...I, I mean Federal System) also issue Illegals DLs w/o any markings or Endorcements like "non-Citizen" or "Unlawful Entry."
So yeah, Holder is the Chief Gunrunning Agent and if the Illegal can't make their own Can, he'll just issue them one from Military Inventory!?!

Funny story: The wait times at Houston hospitals for Trauma Injuries was 36hr and for Sex Assault 72hrs, when I got sucker punched by someone that I was Field Interviewing in 2004.
It was while I was working an Off Duty security job. So when I found out wait times from Fire Dept EMTs, I spoke ONLY Spanish at Hospital Intake. My wait time was only 6hrs b/c they thought that I was just another Illegal. While Citizens had 36hr waits. The EMTs told me this trick and said that even as LEO I would have had to wait AT LEAST the standard wait time. Maybe longer if Intake Clerks had gotten Traffic Tickets or busted for drugs (weed or unprescribed pharma) in their past!

BTW: The perp got 4yrs for his success in punching my nose! And all just because I told him he had to leave the Apartment Complex because of an outstanding No Trepass Warning from the Management Company. All he had to do was walk away. Instead he chose to spend 4yrs in Prison. ?

[Samson104]

ok so what if a buddy comes over and uses my machines and tooling to build his 80% lower or his suppressor and we don't tell anybody???

Or what if I go to HIS house and use HIS tooling to build HIS form 1 can and he does not pay me , is that legal??

If a tree falls in forest and no body hears it . . .

[Archilochus]

Well, just read that over (and as usual with such documents, I now have a headache).
It seems to apply only to "businesses" - either licensed FFL's or unlicensed machine shops.
But still not sure, as it also on occasion seems to treat a "business" and a "person" as the same??

[Bendersquint]

ok so what if a buddy comes over and uses my machines and tooling to build his 80% lower or his suppressor and we don't tell anybody???

Or what if I go to HIS house and use HIS tooling to build HIS form 1 can and he does not pay me , is that legal??

If a tree falls in forest and no body hears it . . .

Just because you don't get caught it doesn't change the prohibition, just means you haven't been caught.

His house, his tooling, his domain over the tools....

Nobody hears the tree but it did make a noise and it still fell. Just because you didn't hear it didn't mean it didn't make a noise.

[Bendersquint]

Well, just read that over (and as usual with such documents, I now have a headache).
It seems to apply only to "businesses" - either licensed FFL's or unlicensed machine shops.
But still not sure, as it also on occasion seems to treat a "business" and a "person" as the same??

They are saying that it can MAKE anyone that owns the equipment being used by someone besides the owner of the equipment "In the Business".

Broadens the term "In the business" and adds stipulations.

Before I could allow anyone to use my cnc equipment to make whatever they want, now with these new stipulations because its done on SRI equpment, it is now SRI made firearm....and needs GCA controls.

[whiterussian1974]

It seems to apply only to "businesses" - either licensed FFL's or unlicensed machine shops.
But still not sure, as it also on occasion seems to treat a "business" and a "person" as the same??

They are saying that it can MAKE anyone that owns the equipment being used by someone besides the owner of the equipment "In the Business".

Broadens the term "In the business" and adds stipulations.

Agreed Bender. Commerce Law states that By Default a Natural Person is automatically treated as a Sole Proprietorship barring other outstanding determinations. (Like Mental Incompetance.)
So, if you're John Doe. You OWN John Doe Co, by default unless otherwise determined by Gov'tal Entity. And your SS# is your Employer ID #.

[L1A1Rocker]

If all the equipment is owned by a Trust, and all parties using the equipment are on the Trust. . . .

I am surethat loophole will be eliminated....besides, who is going to create a trust to make an AR15 or AK47 at a build party?

Most importantly it eliminates the use of local machine shops that are not licensed as an FFL.

It's real easy to put "all shop tools and implements" on my Schedule A and put any person I want on to my trust. Hit print and walk it over to my neighbor for notary service. The legality of my trust is determined by my state, not the ATF. So how is that not allowed?

[baba]

If all the equipment is owned by a Trust, and all parties using the equipment are on the Trust. . . .

I am surethat loophole will be eliminated....besides, who is going to create a trust to make an AR15 or AK47 at a build party?

Most importantly it eliminates the use of local machine shops that are not licensed as an FFL.

It's real easy to put "all shop tools and implements" on my Schedule A and put any person I want on to my trust. Hit print and walk it over to my neighbor for notary service. The legality of my trust is determined by my state, not the ATF. So how is that not allowed?

I'm not worried about doing a build party. I'm worried about using MY OWN EQUIPMENT to build MY OWN items. It just so happens that part of my equipment lives at my brother's house.

-Brian

[whiterussian1974]

If all the equipment is owned by a Trust, and all parties using the equipment are on the Trust. . . .

It's real easy to put "all shop tools and implements" on my Schedule A and put any person I want on to my trust. Hit print and walk it over to my neighbor for notary service. The legality of my trust is determined by my state, not the ATF. So how is that not allowed?

I'm not worried about doing a build party. I'm worried about using MY OWN EQUIPMENT to build MY OWN items. It just so happens that part of my equipment lives at my brother's house.

-Brian

Everyone please stop addeing 'Rtn bttn' before their posts. It just adds unneeded length to the post.
2nd: Baba, just rent your brother's 12'x20' room section for a 100yr lease. For you to use during agreed upon hrs.
Then, if you don't use the space for the duration of the full 100yr lease, have him issue you a graduated refund.

[L1A1Rocker]

I'm not worried about doing a build party. I'm worried about using MY OWN EQUIPMENT to build MY OWN items. It just so happens that part of my equipment lives at my brother's house.

-Brian

Now that is interesting. I suspect that the ATF's ruling is overly broad and encompassing and would be ruled void if challenged. But all in all, I wouldn't want to be the test case.

[hotbrass]

Now that is interesting. I suspect that the ATF's ruling is overly broad and encompassing and would be ruled void if challenged. But all in all, I wouldn't want to be the test case.

That is the case with most of their rules. And I suspect that this is a result of some past and pending cases. Can we say Ares?