Question about time between completion and engraving

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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midaswhale
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Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by midaswhale » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:58 pm

Hey fellas, looking for some advice on the time limit (if any) between completion of a form one can and having it marked properly.

I have three approved form 1's, and will start building next week. I'm not entirely sure how long it will take to complete each can, and would like to have them all engraved at the same time, to save on cost. Is there a specified time limit between the completion and when the cans must be marked according to ATF regs?

I'm making a 22, 5.56, and a .30 cal. First F1 supressor builds, and I couldn't be more excited!

Thanks,
Midaswhale

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by mr fixit » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:10 pm

I think having a completed can that is not engraved is a big no-no. On the other hand, having an engraved tube which has not been built into a can would be ok.

Engrave first then build, or send them to be engraved immediately after completion.

Just my opinion.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:27 pm

Engrave then build, until you identify(engrave) the can how do you PROVE that it is legally yours? You can't. Thats a big no-no.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:29 pm

mr fixit wrote: Engrave first then build, or send them to be engraved immediately after completion.

Just my opinion.
You can not legally ship an unmarked silencer...gives the ATF no traceability, so if you are outsourcing the engraving it has to be done BEFORE its a silencer.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by midaswhale » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:11 pm

I found an ATF ruling regarding time of marking for firearms falling under the GCA but it specifically says it does not apply to NFA firearms. (7 Days)

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-r ... 11-24t.pdf

I suspect you are correct regarding the NFA items though. Kind of confusing how someone can have a SBR'd lower (or completed 80%) shipped off to be engraved after it has been approved/made but you cannot do the same for a supressor. I hear about this being done frequently and was not sure of the legalities involving F1 Supressors as they are a very different animal.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:34 pm

midaswhale wrote:I found an ATF ruling regarding time of marking for firearms falling under the GCA but it specifically says it does not apply to NFA firearms. (7 Days)

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-r ... 11-24t.pdf

I suspect you are correct regarding the NFA items though. Kind of confusing how someone can have a SBR'd lower (or completed 80%) shipped off to be engraved after it has been approved/made but you cannot do the same for a supressor. I hear about this being done frequently and was not sure of the legalities involving F1 Supressors as they are a very different animal.
The reason a SBR'd lower can be sent off for engraving is because it already has the Title1 engravings....meaning its traceable.

The reason you can't send a completed silencer off for engraving is because it bears no marks, meaning it is untraceable.

You can't send off an completed 80% for engraving as its untraceable for the same reasons.

I am sure people do it just like people make soda bottle silencers and use solvent traps for purposes other than cleaning aids...doesn't make it right just means they haven't been caught.

That ruling you quoted is directed at licensed manufacturers, NOT individuals as there is no marking requirement for individuals making firearms for personal use.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by 0101silent » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:32 pm

--
Last edited by 0101silent on Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:48 pm

0101silent wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:Engrave then build, until you identify(engrave) the can how do you PROVE that it is legally yours? You can't. Thats a big no-no.
In this post, viewtopic.php?f=10&t=132111&start=50, 17th from the top you kindly answered my question:

"Would I legally be able to have my Form 1 Silencer Tube laser engraved at a local trophy shop?"
with
"Yes because the firearm is already made."

Could you please clarify? I don't want to make any mistakes.
not sure what else there is to clarify.

Yes, you can have your Form1 can laser engraved b your local trophy shop so long as you are present and the complete can is there.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by fastfire » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:36 pm

I was under the impression that it should be engraved just after threading the outer body of the can and before making baffles :?
From what I have read here :?

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by T-Rex » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:20 pm

fastfire wrote:I was under the impression that it should be engraved just after threading the outer body of the can and before making baffles :?
From what I have read here :?
If that was the law, not saying it isn't, what do you do about a welded can? What then?
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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:22 pm

fastfire wrote:I was under the impression that it should be engraved just after threading the outer body of the can and before making baffles :?
From what I have read here :?
Would love to see where that was said.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Dr.K » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:00 pm

Being the "maker" it seems to me that title entitles you to some degree of discretion regarding the "making" process. I've never seen written down anywhere what order you have to do your operations.

With that said, if you are busted going down the road with a finished silencer with no paperwork, that would certainly raise an eyebrow and be blatantly illegal.

If you were busted with it wrapped up with the paperwork and a rubber band and were driving to the engraver who was expecting you there, and could be verified, then maybe some slack would be given by the involved officer.

Do what you need to do, don't advertise it online.
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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:05 pm

Dr.K wrote:Being the "maker" it seems to me that title entitles you to some degree of discretion regarding the "making" process. I've never seen written down anywhere what order you have to do your operations.

With that said, if you are busted going down the road with a finished silencer with no paperwork, that would certainly raise an eyebrow and be blatantly illegal.

If you were busted with it wrapped up with the paperwork and a rubber band and were driving to the engraver who was expecting you there, and could be verified, then maybe some slack would be given by the involved officer.

Do what you need to do, don't advertise it online.
The order of operations needs to be thought out.

You can't send out a unmarked silencer for engraving.....so that would say the order of operations is engraving first THEN do the work to convert the tube into a silencer.

If you are not sending it out for engraving then it can be at any stage.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by sillycon » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:11 pm

With the new ATF "manufacturing" ruling, you can't send a can to anyone but an 07/02 who would have to mark it with their information as well.

That, actually, begs the question of if an 01/03 could mark it at all -- would that be construed as a manufacturing operation and thus require them to instead have an 07/02?

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:05 pm

sillycon wrote:With the new ATF "manufacturing" ruling, you can't send a can to anyone but an 07/02 who would have to mark it with their information as well.

That, actually, begs the question of if an 01/03 could mark it at all -- would that be construed as a manufacturing operation and thus require them to instead have an 07/02?
If you can't send it to anyone but an 07/02 why are you even asking about an 01/03?

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by fastfire » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:35 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
fastfire wrote:I was under the impression that it should be engraved just after threading the outer body of the can and before making baffles :?
From what I have read here :?
Would love to see where that was said.

Buggers, I may have read it on another forum not here.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Hatch » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:02 am

I took my "solvent tube" to the local trophy shop and had them engrave it while I waited.
This is exactly what I have done with the 1/2 dozen SBRs that I have done.

Generally speaking manufacturers get the tubes engraved prior to assembly.

Suppressors (silencers) are only NFA items, while (for example) AR15 lowers are title I firearms or Title II firearms.

Interesting note - a SBR rifle can be made into a standard rifle (ie 16 inch barrel) and be removed from the NFA registry. Works the same with SBS (18 inch barrel) Or I should say that was the ruling a few years back.
While all other NFA items must be destroyed in order to remove them from the registry. The only other exception might be AOW's.
I have converted my SBR krink back into a long barrel with the addition of a permanently attached fake can. Had the NFA remove it and then sold it. The guy that bought it just did another form 1 once he got it. Saved him $200 in taxes.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:08 am

Hatch wrote:Interesting note - a SBR rifle can be made into a standard rifle (ie 16 inch barrel) and be removed from the NFA registry. Works the same with SBS (18 inch barrel) Or I should say that was the ruling a few years back.
While all other NFA items must be destroyed in order to remove them from the registry. The only other exception might be AOW's.
A SBR or SBS could become a Title1 rifle/shotgun again.

A silencer can never be anything but a silencer. Applies to DD's and most AOW's as well.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by sillycon » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:38 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
sillycon wrote:With the new ATF "manufacturing" ruling, you can't send a can to anyone but an 07/02 who would have to mark it with their information as well.

That, actually, begs the question of if an 01/03 could mark it at all -- would that be construed as a manufacturing operation and thus require them to instead have an 07/02?
If you can't send it to anyone but an 07/02 why are you even asking about an 01/03?
Just because I can't SEND (e.g. via a 3rd party) a can to someone without an 07/02 doesn't mean that I can't walk it across the street to an 01/03 for engraving.

Hence my question of if engraving the can was a manufacturing operation, or a gun-smithing operation. If it were decorative swirls, it would obviously be gunsmithing, but as it's a manufacturers mark I'm curious to know if that that must be treated differently.

Also, if marking is considered a manufacturing operation, then wouldn't that mean that in order for them to mark "your" name on it they must also mark their own?

:shock:

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by AlabamaPaul » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:53 pm

As I understand it, a gunsmith can do the engraving as long as you remain "in control" by remaining there while the work is done, and the gunsmith/FFL wouldn't need to have a SOT...

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:43 pm

sillycon wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
sillycon wrote:With the new ATF "manufacturing" ruling, you can't send a can to anyone but an 07/02 who would have to mark it with their information as well.

That, actually, begs the question of if an 01/03 could mark it at all -- would that be construed as a manufacturing operation and thus require them to instead have an 07/02?
If you can't send it to anyone but an 07/02 why are you even asking about an 01/03?
Just because I can't SEND (e.g. via a 3rd party) a can to someone without an 07/02 doesn't mean that I can't walk it across the street to an 01/03 for engraving.

Hence my question of if engraving the can was a manufacturing operation, or a gun-smithing operation. If it were decorative swirls, it would obviously be gunsmithing, but as it's a manufacturers mark I'm curious to know if that that must be treated differently.

Also, if marking is considered a manufacturing operation, then wouldn't that mean that in order for them to mark "your" name on it they must also mark their own?

:shock:
Engraving an NFA item is a manufacturing operation.

Engraving a tube is not.

This is why you need to think about the order of operations. If it is just a tube then ANYONE can engrave it.

The latest ruling puts a kink in everything.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Gunfixr » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:26 pm

So Bender, the new ruling now makes engraving an NFA item a Manufacturing operation?

As in, someone SBRs a receiver or complete firearm, and then takes it to an 01 FFL for engraving after the Form 1 comes back approved.
Previously, this was legal, as a gunsmithing operation, as was actually building the firearm. Now, it's not?
I'm not talking an 80% receiver, but a regular non-NFA receiver or complete firearm being converted into an NFA firearm.
Clearly, finishing an 80% into an NFA firearm is a Manufacturing operation.
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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:46 pm

Gunfixr wrote:So Bender, the new ruling now makes engraving an NFA item a Manufacturing operation?

As in, someone SBRs a receiver or complete firearm, and then takes it to an 01 FFL for engraving after the Form 1 comes back approved.
Previously, this was legal, as a gunsmithing operation, as was actually building the firearm. Now, it's not?
I'm not talking an 80% receiver, but a regular non-NFA receiver or complete firearm being converted into an NFA firearm.
Clearly, finishing an 80% into an NFA firearm is a Manufacturing operation.
ATF has always considered engraving the makers marks as a manufacturing operation.

Previously anyone could do it as long as the maker was present.

The ruling defines now WHO can do manufacturing operations and thus limits engraving as well.

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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by Gunfixr » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:24 pm

Ok. We'd always done engraving for F1 builders, but while they waited, so all was good.

So, I guess all that has changed is that now an 07 is required.

The owner decided to renew it, so we're still GTG.

If we do let the 07 go, guess we'd just have to quit that service.
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Re: Question about time between completion and engraving

Post by BearTHIS » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:32 pm

I honestly don't get what's so difficult, some people are hyper insane about inane details. Use common sense, get what you need done. In all my years of following this crap, digging until my eyes were swollen from reading court documents, no one that I'm aware of has ever been charged much less convicted of honestly trying to follow the law but running afoul of a technicality like the this. Almost all convictions have involved seriously aggravating circumstances.... As in, the feds were charging them w/ small s--t b/c of other flagrant s--t they were doing. Now some here, will never accept this, I get it. But in all my research I've yet to find a case of an honest man, with an approved tax form, getting in trouble for trying to get his item engraved to comply with 18 USC.

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