Does Form 1 engraving need to use Latin Characters?

[whiterussian1974]

I'm thinking of making a couple f1s in Greek and Russian names. Can I use them or do they need converted into latin letters?

[doubloon]

Roman letters and Arabic numbers only.

I think you can engrave whatever the hell you want on your NFA but the "markings" can only be Roman/Arabic.

[poikilotrm]

A standard typewrite has the capacity for making cuneform markings. Just a thought.

[doubloon]

A standard typewrite has the capacity for making cuneform markings. Just a thought.

No it doesn't. Your thought is poorly crafted.

[poikilotrm]

No it doesn't. Your thought is poorly crafted.

Go make me a sammich. \\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--\\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--\\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--\\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--

[gunny50]

No it doesn't. Your thought is poorly crafted.

Go make me a sammich. \\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--\\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--\\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--\\//^>><<_---_||-- \\//^>><<_---_||--

and the point being?

Gunny

[poikilotrm]

and the point being?

Gunny

See the marks? The lines? That is how cuneform is done.

[dex]

This meets ATF requirements doesn't it, arabic numerals, roman alphabet?

"01001000 01101111 01110111 00100000 01100001 01100010 01101111
01110101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011
00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01101110 00111111"

[doubloon]

...
See the marks? The lines? That is how cuneform is done.

No it's not.

Cuneform doesn't exist.

[doubloon]

This meets ATF requirements doesn't it, arabic numerals, roman alphabet?

"01001000 01101111 01110111 00100000 01100001 01100010 01101111
01110101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011
00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01101110 00111111"

Maybe for a serial number, not sure about a name.

I think it actually says Alpha is not appropriate for a serial number. Meaning your serial number can't be "DAVE" or some other name.

[noisecatcher]

I guess if that's your serial number, city&state, name/trust name rock on. Once the required information is there you can have anything you want so if you want a paisley unicorn jumping over a rainbow while holding hands/hoofs with Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama then get on with it.

If in doubt look at your approved form1 the language and font style the ATF prefers to communicate with is right there, now on a suppressor there are depth requirements but their forms for you to fill out aren't in anything but English in a standard font no wingding or chicken scratch fonts.

[Gone2ddogs]

I think it actually says Alpha is not appropriate for a serial number. Meaning your serial number can't be "DAVE" or some other name.

There is nothing in 27 CFR 478.92 that says Alpha is not appropriate. I have an approved form 1 with my initials as part of the serial number.

As long as you have never used "DAVE" to identify any other firearm you've made then...

JR

[Bendersquint]

This meets ATF requirements doesn't it, arabic numerals, roman alphabet?

"01001000 01101111 01110111 00100000 01100001 01100010 01101111
01110101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011
00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01101110 00111111"

That doesn't qualify for ATF engraving requirements unless that whole thing is your serial number, but that would be a pretty long engraving anyways.

No russian, chinese, computer coding, hyroglifs, wingdings, emoticons etc.... ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ and 0123456789 are the only acceptables for ATF required markings.

Easiest way to look at it is if every ATF agent and law enforcement entity can't read it without a decoder ring then it doesn't qualify.

I will look for the documentation of this as it IS documented as to what is acceptable.

[Bendersquint]

This meets ATF requirements doesn't it, arabic numerals, roman alphabet?

"01001000 01101111 01110111 00100000 01100001 01100010 01101111
01110101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011
00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01101110 00111111"

Maybe for a serial number, not sure about a name.

I think it actually says Alpha is not appropriate for a serial number. Meaning your serial number can't be "DAVE" or some other name.

Correct, you can't just have letters for a serial you have to have numerals as well....

ICANTBELIEVEATFAPPROVEDTHISSERIALNUMBER1

^^^ Acceptable.

[Gone2ddogs]

you can't just have letters for a serial you have to have numerals as well....

27 CFR 478.92
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch

I see nothing in the reg about having to have a number in a serial number. That doesn't mean the the ATF examiner won't reject your serial number of "DAVE" but there is no regulation that prevents you from using "DAVE" as a serial number.

JR

[T-Rex]

I'm not a lawyer and I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn since April, but by the mere fact that it's referred to as a Serial NUMBER is legal jargon enough for me to believe Bender's claim.

[dex]

That doesn't qualify for ATF engraving requirements unless that whole thing is your serial number, but that would be a pretty long engraving anyways.

No russian, chinese, computer coding, hyroglifs, wingdings, emoticons etc.... ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ and 0123456789 are the only acceptables for ATF required markings.

Easiest way to look at it is if every ATF agent and law enforcement entity can't read it without a decoder ring then it doesn't qualify.

I will look for the documentation of this as it IS documented as to what is acceptable.

That's 8-bit binary. It's a joke. Letters (including non-standard characters) and numbers represented as ones and zeros. It's exactly as any engraving will appear in their electronic databases; little ones and zeros that are equally unreadable by normal humans. Yes, it occupies a lot of real estate as an engraving. Yes, I understand that most govt. bureaucrats have no sense of humor and also wouldn't understand the nomenclature and as such would be rejected as a matter of course. That wasn't the point.

[Bendersquint]

Here is the documentation that requires the marking be in Roman letters and Arabic numerals

Specifically read the last paragraph as that ties it all together and applies to EVERYONE and NFA engravings.
(Emphasis by me)

"ATF Ruling 2002-6

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been asked by State and local law enforcement officials to trace firearms that are marked, in part, with non-Roman letters and/or non-Arabic numbers. Specifically, ATF received a request to trace a Makarov type pistol made in Bulgaria. The original manufacturer marking was ИМ 18 355. Because the importer did not stamp the firearm with a unique identifier that could be recognized by either ATF or a State or local law enforcement official, and because the marking contained a Cyrillic character, the firearm was not properly recorded, resulting in a failed trace of the weapon.

Because markings with non-Roman characters or non-Arabic are not easily recorded or transmitted through means by importers, dealers, or distributors, many firearm traces have proved unsuccessful. In some cases, an importer attempts to translate portions of the markings into Roman letters and Arabic numbers and re-marks the weapon with the serial number ДМ7639И. The importer translated the marking as LM7639i but rather than restamp the entire number merely added the letters “L” and “i” below the original markings. This practice often results in failed traces because those required to record the markings (importers, dealers, or distributors) may record only the translated portions or both sets of markings. Moreover, law enforcement recovering a firearm with such markings may submit a trace request lacking some portion of the markings, further impeding efforts to successfully trace the firearm.

In addition, ATF has found that some traces have failed because the required markings on the firearms barrel were wholly partially obstructed from plain view by a flash suppressor or bayonet mount, resulting in the Federal Firearms Licensee creating an inaccurate record. ATF has been unable to trace hundreds of firearms as a result of nonstandard or obscured markings.

As a result of these practices, some licensed importers my not be in compliance with the marking requirements set forth in 27 CFR 178.92[a] and 27 CFR 179.102[a] because they have marked using non-Roman letters (such as Greek or Russian letters, Δ or Д) or non-Arabic numbers (e.g., XXV).

The above regulations require markings that legibly identify each item or package and require that such markings be conspicuous. ATF has consistently taken the position that “legibly” marked means using exclusively Roman letters, (A, a, B, b, C, c, and so forth) and ‘conspicuous” means that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. These regulation apply to licensed manufacturers and licensed importers relative to firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices, and to makers of National Firearms Act firearms."

[Bendersquint]

That doesn't qualify for ATF engraving requirements unless that whole thing is your serial number, but that would be a pretty long engraving anyways.

No russian, chinese, computer coding, hyroglifs, wingdings, emoticons etc.... ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ and 0123456789 are the only acceptables for ATF required markings.

Easiest way to look at it is if every ATF agent and law enforcement entity can't read it without a decoder ring then it doesn't qualify.

I will look for the documentation of this as it IS documented as to what is acceptable.

That's 8-bit binary. It's a joke. Letters (including non-standard characters) and numbers represented as ones and zeros. It's exactly as any engraving will appear in their electronic databases; little ones and zeros that are equally unreadable by normal humans. Yes, it occupies a lot of real estate as an engraving. Yes, I understand that most govt. bureaucrats have no sense of humor and also wouldn't understand the nomenclature and as such would be rejected as a matter of course. That wasn't the point.

With how many people I see that try to skirt the law or screw with the ATF, its sometimes hard to determine jokes on here.

[Bendersquint]

I see nothing in the reg about having to have a number in a serial number. That doesn't mean the the ATF examiner won't reject your serial number of "DAVE" but there is no regulation that prevents you from using "DAVE" as a serial number.

Here is the documentation that proves you have to have Arabic Numerals in a serial number.

If you read the full Ruling you will see that it applies to all licensees AND MAKERS OF NFA FIREARMS(everyone that drops a Form1)

From ATF Ruling 2013-3

"4.
The serial number adopted must be comprised of only a combination of Roman letters and Arabic numerals,
or solely Arabic numerals, and can include a hyphen, that were conspicuously placed on the firearm;
"

[doubloon]

...
Maybe for a serial number, not sure about a name.

I think it actually says Alpha is not appropriate for a serial number. Meaning your serial number can't be "DAVE" or some other name.

Correct, you can't just have letters for a serial you have to have numerals as well....

ICANTBELIEVEATFAPPROVEDTHISSERIALNUMBER1

^^^ Acceptable.

Yes ... I tried to provide an example but I guess it wasn't clear enough.

[doubloon]

I see nothing in the reg about having to have a number in a serial number. That doesn't mean the the ATF examiner won't reject your serial number of "DAVE" but there is no regulation that prevents you from using "DAVE" as a serial number.

Here is the documentation that proves you have to have Arabic Numerals in a serial number.

If you read the full Ruling you will see that it applies to all licensees AND MAKERS OF NFA FIREARMS(everyone that drops a Form1)

From ATF Ruling 2013-3

"4.
The serial number adopted must be comprised of only a combination of Roman letters and Arabic numerals,
or solely Arabic numerals, and can include a hyphen, that were conspicuously placed on the firearm;
"

Yay!

I didn't have to search for it.

[DKDravis]

So ..

This would be a valid Serial number: DRAVIS-1FFC
but would "Any ATF agent or LE officer" be able to read it correctly ?

[Bendersquint]

So ..

This would be a valid Serial number: DRAVIS-1FFC
but would "Any ATF agent or LE officer" be able to read it correctly ?

Yes that is a valid serial number.

[DKDravis]

So my set of 4 cans will be serial numbered DRAVIS-1FF9 to DRAVIS-1FFC ...

Luckily I'm not in the US ... No requirement for a serial no. on cans here .. No Tax either .. You will need a permit to be legal, but thats "free of charge"

Unfortunately you can not make your own cans, without a special "Firearms parts production permit" Which is NOT easy to get ..