Form 1 modular design

[techspy]

I should be getting close to receiving 2 forms 1 can approvals and want to get a couple more in before the change in the trust takes effect. So, I am considering a .45 can but would like to be able to have a short and longer one. I have done a few searches but can't seem to find a definitive answer (as definitive as you can get with dealing with NFA anyway). Being that manufacturers can make a modular can, which can be shot in 2 different lengths, can a form 1 maker do the same? The plan would be to have 5" and 7" pieces that can be used separately (one at a time) or when screwed together. The serial # would be on the end cap that is needed to mount to the barrel. (so only one at a time could be used with that serial) Is that allowable? If not, would it be allowable to have 2 form 1s, build a 5" and 7" with their own approval and serial number, use them separately and then screw them together and use them together?

Thanks

[daPhoosa]

I should be getting close to receiving 2 forms 1 can approvals and want to get a couple more in before the change in the trust takes effect. So, I am considering a .45 can but would like to be able to have a short and longer one. I have done a few searches but can't seem to find a definitive answer (as definitive as you can get with dealing with NFA anyway). Being that manufacturers can make a modular can, which can be shot in 2 different lengths, can a form 1 maker do the same? The plan would be to have 5" and 7" pieces that can be used separately (one at a time) or when screwed together. The serial # would be on the end cap that is needed to mount to the barrel. (so only one at a time could be used with that serial) Is that allowable? If not, would it be allowable to have 2 form 1s, build a 5" and 7" with their own approval and serial number, use them separately and then screw them together and use them together?

Thanks

I think the easiest option for a private person is doing 2x form 1s (obviously more expensive). There are companies that have approval on modular units ( http://deadairsilencers.com/product/ghost-m/ ), but I'm not aware of a form 1 being approved this way. There is provision for submitting a design with your form 1. If you don't mind a possible rejection, it might be worth a try.

[fastfire]

I should be getting close to receiving 2 forms 1 can approvals and want to get a couple more in before the change in the trust takes effect. So, I am considering a .45 can but would like to be able to have a short and longer one. I have done a few searches but can't seem to find a definitive answer (as definitive as you can get with dealing with NFA anyway). Being that manufacturers can make a modular can, which can be shot in 2 different lengths, can a form 1 maker do the same? The plan would be to have 5" and 7" pieces that can be used separately (one at a time) or when screwed together. The serial # would be on the end cap that is needed to mount to the barrel. (so only one at a time could be used with that serial) Is that allowable? If not, would it be allowable to have 2 form 1s, build a 5" and 7" with their own approval and serial number, use them separately and then screw them together and use them together?

Thanks

I think the easiest option for a private person is doing 2x form 1s (obviously more expensive). There are companies that have approval on modular units ( http://deadairsilencers.com/product/ghost-m/ ), but I'm not aware of a form 1 being approved this way. There is provision for submitting a design with your form 1. If you don't mind a possible rejection, it might be worth a try.

I'd like to see modular designs approved for form 1 cans but as it stands now (no extra parts).
If you screwed 2 together there would be an end cap left over.

[Bendersquint]

Manufacturers have a process they go through to get the approval, this process is not available to non-licensees.

Besides by your description you have 2 silencers if either of them can be used on their own. If you look at the ATF approved commercial designs you will notice that (using your example numbers) the 5 incher can ONLY be attached to the 7 incher.....making it either a 7 or 12 inch can.

[techspy]

Thanks for the info guys. I guess I will just forget the modular design. I will probably just go ahead and get 3 more form 1s started. probably only build 1 or 2 once approved and have the option for the 3rd, larger one later.

[c5_nc]

Thanks for the info guys. I guess I will just forget the modular design. I will probably just go ahead and get 3 more form 1s started. probably only build 1 or 2 once approved and have the option for the 3rd, larger one later.

You can try "being clear of your intentions" with the diagram and description. In the past they have not been approved. The said was said of commercial cans until recently also though. Worst case is some lost time and waiting for a refund of the $200. Personally if it was something I wanted to do I would go ahead and apply just for the heck of it, contact them on denial if it happens to see what changes would be needed.

[Rich V]

Manufacturers have a process they go through to get the approval, this process is not available to non-licensees.

Besides by your description you have 2 silencers if either of them can be used on their own. If you look at the ATF approved commercial designs you will notice that (using your example numbers) the 5 incher can ONLY be attached to the 7 incher.....making it either a 7 or 12 inch can.

Hypothetically, if I made an exact copy of an approved commercial multi piece (modular) silencer on a form 1 how would the BATF claim it didn't meet their definition of an allowable NFA item?

[fastfire]

Manufacturers have a process they go through to get the approval, this process is not available to non-licensees.

Besides by your description you have 2 silencers if either of them can be used on their own. If you look at the ATF approved commercial designs you will notice that (using your example numbers) the 5 incher can ONLY be attached to the 7 incher.....making it either a 7 or 12 inch can.

Hypothetically, if I made an exact copy of an approved commercial multi piece (modular) silencer on a form 1 how would the BATF claim it didn't meet their definition of an allowable NFA item?

I believe the manufacturers have been given an exception?

[Bendersquint]

Manufacturers have a process they go through to get the approval, this process is not available to non-licensees.

Besides by your description you have 2 silencers if either of them can be used on their own. If you look at the ATF approved commercial designs you will notice that (using your example numbers) the 5 incher can ONLY be attached to the 7 incher.....making it either a 7 or 12 inch can.

Hypothetically, if I made an exact copy of an approved commercial multi piece (modular) silencer on a form 1 how would the BATF claim it didn't meet their definition of an allowable NFA item?

I believe the manufacturers have been given an exception?

Bingo.

Because a commercial manufacturer gets approval to do said design does not mean that anyone else can fall under that approval. It is case by case and even manufacturers can't use anothers approval they have to seek their own.

[Rich V]

Manufacturers have a process they go through to get the approval, this process is not available to non-licensees.

Besides by your description you have 2 silencers if either of them can be used on their own. If you look at the ATF approved commercial designs you will notice that (using your example numbers) the 5 incher can ONLY be attached to the 7 incher.....making it either a 7 or 12 inch can

Hypothetically, if I made an exact copy of an approved commercial multi piece (modular) silencer on a form 1 how would the BATF claim it didn't meet their definition of an allowable NFA item?


I believe the manufacturers have been given an exception?

Bingo.

Because a commercial manufacturer gets approval to do said design does not mean that anyone else can fall under that approval. It is case by case and even manufacturers can't use anothers approval they have to seek their own.
----------------------------------------------------- to many quotes
Ok lets take this to the logical end.
A person files and is approved for a from 1 in the same length and caliber as the Dead Air Ghost-M.
With F1 in hand they proceed and build an exact copy of the Ghost-M. Some time later during the course of using the can the owner is confronted by a BATF agent who contends that it is not a valid F1 build since it is modular. Builder is then in possession of an illegal NFA item.

If this went to trial how will the BATF prove that the F1 builder was in violation of the law if the defense can show that the F1 can is identical to the commercial and legal 1 stamp Ghost-M?

This is hypothetical but if I understand correctly the issue is the BATF approves the Ghost-M to be commercially sold with a one stamp F4 but the identical item made under a F1 is two silencers and needs two stamps? No way would that hold up in a jury trial.

[CMV]

Ok lets take this to the logical end.
A person files and is approved for a from 1 in the same length and caliber as the Dead Air Ghost-M.
With F1 in hand they proceed and build an exact copy of the Ghost-M. Some time later during the course of using the can the owner is confronted by a BATF agent who contends that it is not a valid F1 build since it is modular. Builder is then in possession of an illegal NFA item.

If this went to trial how will the BATF prove that the F1 builder was in violation of the law if the defense can show that the F1 can is identical to the commercial and legal 1 stamp Ghost-M?

This is hypothetical but if I understand correctly the issue is the BATF approves the Ghost-M to be commercially sold with a one stamp F4 but the identical item made under a F1 is two silencers and needs two stamps? No way would that hold up in a jury trial.

Maybe, maybe not. But a stamp costs $200. Legal defense for a jury trial is at least $201, so maybe saving the $1 is the better route.

Wouldn't you run into the issue of section #1 being X length & if that were all that was being used at the time, it's nowhere close to what the form-1 says?

Maybe a way to do something modular would be to make it fatter instead of longer? Never seen it so I have no idea, but a coaxial piece that can attach to/over. Some kind of plugs for when not in use.... That would keep the length the same and would be absolutely useless as a stand-alone thing.

[T-Rex]

Going with Rich's hypothetical and having your defense assert the fact that the ATF can show no written law which clarifies why one entity can and one can not.

Now, with what CMV said about you having 12" on the form 1, but only 7" on the gun (lets assume the 5" portion is useless, on its own). I feel this is backed by SBR holders having a form 1 for a 12" 300blk, but an 8" upper, currently on the registered SBR. Sure, you can put the registered length/caliber upper back on, but so too can you return the suppressor to its registered configuration.

Yes yes, all well and good until the ATF pulls your card. Doesn't mean a judge/court wont find in your favor, regardless of cost benefit.