Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

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Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:01 am

apparently yes they do, as some others who are "pros" say so. or maybe this pro isnt a pro, hard to say, but this write-up is linked back to Silencertalk.

"When it comes to marksmanship anything that increases variance reduces accuracy"
http://emptormaven.com/2007/03/freebore-boost-effects/

so going back to the now missing thread for cans and accuracy data, the vendors should post some data around bullet fps variances as this is a key indicator as to how the can design may impact accuracy.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by 300sniper » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:23 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
....the vendors should post some data around bullet fps variances as this is a key indicator as to how the can design may impact accuracy.
I've got a great idea! How about instead of "they" do the testing, YOU do the testing because it seems that YOU are the one concerned with it.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by Capt. Link. » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:30 pm

Free bore boost is a constant factor for a given design not generally accredited for accuracy issues.We discuss technical issues of this type to mitigate these factors in our builds.Do you know how to reduce this effect?

If you have information that is contrary to the research of Kyttalla & Paakkonen done in 1996 on accuracy issues with suppressors that would be of interest to all.

If you have a general complaint about information given by manufactures the nut case bitch and whine section would be a more appropriate place to post.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:38 pm

300sniper wrote:
I've got a great idea! How about instead of "they" do the testing, YOU do the testing because it seems that YOU are the one concerned with it.
oh no, i am no pro in this area, know nothing about can designs or anything like that, not even sure what MOA is. the vendors are the experts, shouldnt they be the ones to provide some data in terms of deviation of bullet metrics. can-A from maker-A has a fps diff of just 20fps, can-B from maker-B has a fps diff of 175fps, what to make of the varying diff between fps (focal point spot) of the different cans?
Capt. Link. wrote: If you have information that is contrary to the research of Kyttalla & Paakkonen done in 1996 on accuracy issues with suppressors that would be of interest to all.
not sure if you read the 1st post, that professional stated that cans create variances which impact accuracy. if you are disputing his professional claims then perhaps you take up your dispute claim with him ??

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by texan_eagle_scout » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:11 pm

When properly designed, you will get a potential "Point-Of-Impact" shift with consistent grouping.

Theoretically, you could fire with a can on and have a certain POI grouping. Then fire with it off and have a certain POI and grouping. They may not be the same point, but they will be consistent and repeatable.

At least that seems to be what I am gathering from my reading on suppressor designs.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by Fulliautomatix » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:20 pm

texan_eagle_scout wrote:When properly designed, you will get a potential "Point-Of-Impact" shift with consistent grouping.

Theoretically, you could fire with a can on and have a certain POI grouping. Then fire with it off and have a certain POI and grouping. They may not be the same point, but they will be consistent and repeatable.

At least that seems to be what I am gathering from my reading on suppressor designs.
This makes perfect sense. Anything that that increases variance affects precision more than it would impact accuracy.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:23 pm

Fulliautomatix wrote: This makes perfect sense. Anything that that increases variance affects precision more than it would impact accuracy.
i guess it depends if you like the beer glass to be 3/4 full at minimum, or no more than 1/4 empty :lol: :lol:

and i guess it makes no diff at all if you know how many clicks on the scope is needed with can on and for a specific ammo, or at least have a chart, or spend time on range dialing it it before you go shooting, or, never shoot w/o the can. i guess many options to choose from.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by doubloon » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:14 pm

silencer_kid wrote:... i guess many practical options to choose from.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by rem_pss308 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:25 pm

I am not that smart. but I do have my personal results:

Remington 700 tactical SPS .308 cal. 16" barrel with Griffin minimalist titanium break.

Form 1, titanium 1.5" OD 11" can with griffin endcap. baffels are formed freeze plugs with a deep cone. each cone is clipped, and put in can at random. blast baffle is not clipped or drilled and is titanium valve spring retainer.

can weight = 18 oz

when shooting 168 gr federal match ammo at 100 yards wit and without can, I get a point of impact change of approximately 1.5"

5 shot group size without can, is about 1/2"
5 shot group size with can is about 1/4"

so all I can say is my can improves accuracy.

I have not tried this with any other of my rifles or cans.

hope this helps
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by stimpsonjcat » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:57 pm

On my Mauser adding the can means I need to add 11 minutes of up and 1 minute of left.

Actual group size does not change at all.

I had a guy at a shoot debate this and so I sat there taking the can on and off and taking shots until he got bored watching the two ragged holes form up.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:31 pm

stimpsonjcat wrote:On my Mauser adding the can means I need to add 11 minutes of up and 1 minute of left.

Actual group size does not change at all.

I had a guy at a shoot debate this and so I sat there taking the can on and off and taking shots until he got bored watching the two ragged holes form up.
so there you have it, screwing on cans does affect accuracy, likely every can impacts it differently. can it be adjusted? yes, a little MOA adjusting, but a real pita if you shoot w/ and w/o. not sure if the adjusting is possible with just iron sites.

i think there is some confusion about "accuracy". if i add XYZ to my $1mil rifle and the bullet doest hit dead center as it did before XYZ, then XYZ impacts accuracy. its like that car race where you lose every time by 1/2 car length, so you go out and get a better turbo that gives you an extra 200hp, yet you still lose the race by even more....... hmmmm, probably needed better tires, thus simply adding XYZ (turbo) impacts the performance right up front, yet you can adjust for it, you just cant go back to the smaller tires, etc.

if the argument is grouping, then most good designs make grouping tighter.

so now lets see if the "pros" here can explain this shift in MOA and why the groupings get tighter, me very curious to the explanations that will be presented.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by propeine » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:10 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
stimpsonjcat wrote:On my Mauser adding the can means I need to add 11 minutes of up and 1 minute of left.

Actual group size does not change at all.

I had a guy at a shoot debate this and so I sat there taking the can on and off and taking shots until he got bored watching the two ragged holes form up.
so there you have it, screwing on cans does affect accuracy, likely every can impacts it differently. can it be adjusted? yes, a little MOA adjusting, but a real pita if you shoot w/ and w/o. not sure if the adjusting is possible with just iron sites.

i think there is some confusion about "accuracy". if i add XYZ to my $1mil rifle and the bullet doest hit dead center as it did before XYZ, then XYZ impacts accuracy. its like that car race where you lose every time by 1/2 car length, so you go out and get a better turbo that gives you an extra 200hp, yet you still lose the race by even more....... hmmmm, probably needed better tires, thus simply adding XYZ (turbo) impacts the performance right up front, yet you can adjust for it, you just cant go back to the smaller tires, etc.

if the argument is grouping, then most good designs make grouping tighter.

so now lets see if the "pros" here can explain this shift in MOA and why the groupings get tighter, me very curious to the explanations that will be presented.

Just so we're all on the same page with vocabulary
Image

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:45 pm

propeine wrote: Just so we're all on the same page with vocabulary
Image
very much the wrong page. "Accurate" and "not Precise" cannot co-exsist. perhaps the author of that graph knows vocabulary, but simply does not understand the definitions of words !

Image

ac·cu·rate
ˈakyərət/
adjective
adjective: accurate
1. (of information, measurements, statistics, etc.) correct in all details; exact.
synonyms: correct, precise


pre·cise
prəˈsīs/
adjective
adjective: precise
1. marked by exactness and accuracy of expression or detail
synonyms: exact, accurate

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by fastfire » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:56 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
propeine wrote: Just so we're all on the same page with vocabulary
Image
very much the wrong page. "Accurate" and "not Precise" cannot co-exsist. perhaps the author of that graph knows vocabulary, but simply does not understand the definitions of words !

Image

ac·cu·rate
ˈakyərət/
adjective
adjective: accurate
1. (of information, measurements, statistics, etc.) correct in all details; exact.
synonyms: correct, precise


pre·cise
prəˈsīs/
adjective
adjective: precise
1. marked by exactness and accuracy of expression or detail
synonyms: exact, accurate

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by fishman » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:22 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
propeine wrote: Just so we're all on the same page with vocabulary
Image
very much the wrong page. "Accurate" and "not Precise" cannot co-exsist. perhaps the author of that graph knows vocabulary, but simply does not understand the definitions of words !

Image

ac·cu·rate
ˈakyərət/
adjective
adjective: accurate
1. (of information, measurements, statistics, etc.) correct in all details; exact.
synonyms: correct, precise


pre·cise
prəˈsīs/
adjective
adjective: precise
1. marked by exactness and accuracy of expression or detail
synonyms: exact, accurate
quoting a dictionary is a pretty bad, argument. Dictionary definitions exist not to define the exact usage of a word, but to help someone who doesnt know what the word is understand its use.

a precise scale would be a gunpowder scale, it can measure to a tenth of a grain. a bathroom scale might be just as accurate, it will tell you your weight correctly, but only to the nearest pound, so its not as precise.

a group centered on the bullseye is accurate, but a smaller group is accurate and more precise. do both guns hit where they're supposed to, yes. one gun just does it with more precision.

if accuracy cant exist without precision, then no rifle is accurate because no rifle will hit the very exact center of the bullseye exactly perfectly every time.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by LavaRed » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:28 pm

Silencer_kid, with all due respect, I don't think you really know what you're talking about. Normally I refrain from arguments with other people, but, I did study engineering, and I was rather good at statistics. I believe before you continue making a fool of yourself you'd be best advised to inform yourself better.

fps = feet per second, which is a measure of speed. This is important because the more variability in speed there is for a given platform, the more variation in precision it will experiment.

Also, Accuracy means hitting where you aimed. Precision means hitting the same spot repeatedly. Therefore, A gun can be inaccurate but precise if it consistently hits the same spot, even if it's different from where you aimed. That is usually corrected by zeroing. And it can also be accurate but not precise, also known as a large group. What we are usually concerned with, when designing a suppressor, is exactly that: To prevent group size from opening too much, or impact from being unpredictable.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:08 pm

A rifle that prints a 3.00" group is accurate to 3 moa if the pattern is random and repeatable within the group the same can be said of a .5 MOA rifle.

A inaccurate rifle will print a group but can't be counted upon to be repeatable to hold that group because of excessive flyers due to POI changes using the same POA.

The term precision I think is best left to the construction of the rifle and not its MOA capability as that will change with the loads fed to it.The ability of consistent POA and POI will change with in-precise equipment.

A precision shooter is one who is consistent with shot placement within the accuracy limits of his equipment.

POI & POA changes because of the addition of a suppressor that dose not change the MOA has no effect upon its accuracy.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:20 pm

fishman wrote: a precise scale would be a gunpowder scale, it can measure to a tenth of a grain. a bathroom scale might be just as accurate, it will tell you your weight correctly, but only to the nearest pound, so its not as precise.

a group centered on the bullseye is accurate, but a smaller group is accurate and more precise. do both guns hit where they're supposed to, yes. one gun just does it with more precision.

if accuracy cant exist without precision, then no rifle is accurate because no rifle will hit the very exact center of the bullseye exactly perfectly every time.
1. precise and resolution are completely two different things. "accuracy to 0.0001" is the device being able to measure at that resolution in a repeatable fashion. "accuracy" and "precision" are the same thing folks.
2. if they dont hit exactly where the cross-hairs are, it's not accurate, the deviation from dead-accurate is what we measure, so if 1MOA is as accurate as it will shoot, then so be it. if 1 click is 0.001MOA, then that scope has way better resolution in its adjusters than the cheapy 1click/1MOA item.
3. i agree with your last statement, we can only compare one to the other by looking at their diffs, 1MOA vs the 0.5MOA rifle

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by fishman » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:29 pm

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:32 pm

LavaRed wrote:fps = feet per second, which is a measure of speed. This is important because the more variability in speed there is for a given platform, the more variation in precision it will experiment.
did you see my fps definition from the other thread, which i purposely called it focal point, or something like that ?? funny, others kept going with that. i know what fps is (and a bunch of other stuff too), but thank you for giving the definition for FPS, i sometimes use MPS but that would probably screw up all the "pros" here when trying to calculate the conversion. :lol: :lol:

and yes fishman, they are describing precision as accuracy in a different context, namely repeatability. i get it (not sure how i would know this ;) , oh snap, i do know why i know this).

anyways, lets play the word game. if the groupings are tight but off target, you click the scope to bring it back to zero. ok, thats perfectly fine. the question was, if i screw a can onto a $10k rifle that is dead-on w/o a can, and with can the grouping is the same ("precise" in your head) but is now off center by 4", that can just impacted accuracy, you now have to adjust the scope.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:04 pm

This is only my opinion after many years of building rifles shooting and knowing other shooters.
I have a M-48 that has minimal MOA, POI & POA.Most would call that a precision rifle by any definition I do too its very well made.

Even when you add harmonic problems you can normally expect a rifle to group within its new MOA rating.The group size has increased overall but without flyers or unexpected shifts in POI once the aiming point has been found.The rifle is still accurate and MOA size can be restored once a favorable harmonic balance is achieved.The Browning B.O.S.S. system allowed fine harmonic tuning the same can be done with a suppressor and a movable weight mounted on it.I have seen rifles go from a 1.5 average to a .5 with fine tuning alone.Your mileage may vary. :D

I don't generally agree with many of the definitions found on line because of the "wiki" effect.You can change a wiki if enough people agree this dose not make it true though.This is no indictment of you or others to your opinions.
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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:18 pm

Capt. Link. wrote: I don't generally agree with many of the definitions found on line because of the "wiki" effect.You can change a wiki if enough people agree this dose not make it true though.This is no indictment of you or others to your opinions.
the edu link is a good one. the scientific definitions are routinely used in wrong context in arms world.

here, as example, i build you a $10k extreme precision rifle, but with fixed iron sights the calibration for "accuracy" just isnt there. the rifle can group a specific round within 0.200" of each other at 100yds, but off center by 9". do you buy the rifle, it sure is damn precise. no you dont buy it, instead you demand accuracy, so i build another very accurate $10k rifle, this time with adjustable iron sights the grouping is all over the paper but all within 4-6" of dead center even with your $2500 scope mounted and calibrated to the best you can. hmmmm, do you buy the "very accurate" rifle. no you dont, you demand a Accurate rifle, one that hits real close to where the cross hairs are. a rifle is "accurate" once it is dialed-in (aka calibrated) and that accuracy remains constant, otherwise we toss the pos into the trash.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by propeine » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:58 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
This is only my opinion after many years of building rifles shooting and knowing other shooters.
I have a M-48 that has minimal MOA, POI & POA.Most would call that a precision rifle by any definition I do too its very well made.

Even when you add harmonic problems you can normally expect a rifle to group within its new MOA rating.The group size has increased overall but without flyers or unexpected shifts in POI once the aiming point has been found.The rifle is still accurate and MOA size can be restored once a favorable harmonic balance is achieved.The Browning B.O.S.S. system allowed fine harmonic tuning the same can be done with a suppressor and a movable weight mounted on it.I have seen rifles go from a 1.5 average to a .5 with fine tuning alone.Your mileage may vary. :D

I don't generally agree with many of the definitions found on line because of the "wiki" effect.You can change a wiki if enough people agree this dose not make it true though.This is no indictment of you or others to your opinions.
The graphic I posted is the same one from my engineering texts 15 years ago. I could scan that page if it would help. Accuracy can generally be adjusted by sights or scope. Precision is controlled by the entire system of rifle, ammo, conditions and shooter.

So yes cans by definition general affect accuracy. This is your POI shift. Hopefully this shift is repeatable. Sometimes they can also affect precision. This is your increase or decrease in group size. Baffle strikes, asymmetry in the blast baffle, odd harmonics etc.

Of course all of the terminology is based on how I was shown. If your whole life you were told the sky was green and traffic lights are blue well then who am I to argue.

Edited to add Link this isn't directed at you specifically. Multi quote doesn't play well with my phone.
Last edited by propeine on Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:59 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
300sniper wrote:
I've got a great idea! How about instead of "they" do the testing, YOU do the testing because it seems that YOU are the one concerned with it.
oh no, i am no pro in this area, know nothing about can designs or anything like that, not even sure what MOA is. the vendors are the experts, shouldnt they be the ones to provide some data in terms of deviation of bullet metrics. can-A from maker-A has a fps diff of just 20fps, can-B from maker-B has a fps diff of 175fps, what to make of the varying diff between fps (focal point spot) of the different cans?
You transfer all the desired cans to my shop and i will provide all the test data that is needed.

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Re: Do Can Designs Affect Accuracy?

Post by Capt. Link. » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:05 am

propeine wrote:
Of course all of the terminology is based on how I was shown. If your whole life you were told the sky was green and traffic lights are blue well then who am I to argue.
Putting forth the terminology is best so everyone is on the same page so to speak.I do not have a engineering degree which is possibly the best terms to use for this discussion.
Would you mind posting that page out of your textbook.Right now we are in the tower of Babel.
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