BEATING A DEAD HORSE BACK TO LIFE

[Tony M.]

You forgot:

11) How many operators does it take to screw in a lightbulb?






Operators don't screw in lightbulbs, Mom won't let them, and it's her basement.

My favorite little forum operator didn't even comment on my post

It just took him longer than usual to google.

And he still managed to be a condescending ignorant little prick. No surprise there, but man, he has a talent for being a shithead.

[quiettime]

C) An asymmetrical port should never be used in a blast baffle, no matter the round it will destroy accuracy.

Do you find this to be true even with a K-baffle?

[curtistactical]

C) An asymmetrical port should never be used in a blast baffle, no matter the round it will destroy accuracy.

Do you find this to be true even with a K-baffle?

Yes, I know there are some manufacturers that do it on rimfires but I also haven't got to test their suppressors to see if it affects accuracy or not. I know on every test I have ever tried with an asymetrical ported blast baffle it had a negative effect. The cone with a clip as the blast baffle has less of an effect than a K baffle as a blast baffle unless its a modified k without the mouse hole.
Joe

[propeine]

Joe,
I thank you for freely sharing info that you've gained from years of testing and experience. Broadly expansive info like this isn't often available publicly. That's not to say there aren't numerous individuals more than willing to share knowledge here either once one knows what questions to ask.
Tom

[curtistactical]

Joe,
I thank you for freely sharing info that you've gained from years of testing and experience. Broadly expansive info like this isn't often available publicly. That's not to say there aren't numerous individuals more than willing to share knowledge here either once one knows what questions to ask.
Tom

This is a good place to learn if you are into suppressor building. I learn things all the time reading on here, no one know everything about anything and we can all learn from each other. I am always willing to help form 1 guys out, I think its cool when guys have the ambition to jump in and try building something for themselves instead of going and grabbing it off a shelf at a store. Maybe I feel different than the bigger manufacturers because I don't want to build thousands of suppressors a year, I am happy with 15-20 suppressors a month to pay the bills, this allows me to do all of the work myself and avoid the headaches of employees.
Joe

[Rich V]

C) An asymmetrical port should never be used in a blast baffle, no matter the round it will destroy accuracy.

Do you find this to be true even with a K-baffle?

Yes, I know there are some manufacturers that do it on rimfires but I also haven't got to test their suppressors to see if it affects accuracy or not. I know on every test I have ever tried with an asymetrical ported blast baffle it had a negative effect. The cone with a clip as the blast baffle has less of an effect than a K baffle as a blast baffle unless its a modified k without the mouse hole.
Joe

Joe
What would you suggest for a blast baffle on a 22 rimfire if using Ks for the baffle stack?

[curtistactical]

Do you find this to be true even with a K-baffle?

Yes, I know there are some manufacturers that do it on rimfires but I also haven't got to test their suppressors to see if it affects accuracy or not. I know on every test I have ever tried with an asymetrical ported blast baffle it had a negative effect. The cone with a clip as the blast baffle has less of an effect than a K baffle as a blast baffle unless its a modified k without the mouse hole.
Joe

Joe
What would you suggest for a blast baffle on a 22 rimfire if using Ks for the baffle stack?

I just machine a flat face on the rear of the first baffle and drill two .125" holes at the outer edge of the flange to bleed into the first chamber(this makes use of that air space on the first baffle) or you could just make a 45deg cone style blast baffle. Both ways work equally well it just depends on which one fits better with your overall design.
Joe

[quietoldfart]

I've been using this 7075 blast baffle (which is the same on the other side) for some hundreds of rounds, largely Remington Subsonic in .22lr, but also several flavours of subsonic CCI and a few dozen higher velocity cartridges. It is starting to show slight pitting near the entry point but seems likely to take some thousands of shots before structural worries arise. A thin layer of soft lithium grease applied every few magazines has proven invaluable in preventing most carbon build-up - this blast baffle is the only one in the suppressor showing any black at all.



I did try a flatter entry point per the recommendation of several professional makers contributing to this forum and some imagery found on manufacturer's websites. Tried this modification in the suppressor for my old French pistol with a 4" barrel as well as with my newer takedown rifle in the same calibre (this being a reflex suppressor with more K baffles and a ported 10" barrel), but the sharper cone curving away definitely resulted in a quieter report (both audibly compared and using numbers from my very consistent, if very cheap SPL meter), which is further quieted when using similar entrances to my K baffles - I've since put the experimental K baffles which I had cut flat for about a 2mm radius around their bores into an air rifle suppressor, on a weapon which is fairly quiet already, such that the noisier result of that failed experiment is not very important. A sharp edge adjacent to the bore has proven, for me at least, to be substantially quieter for both blast baffles and K baffles.

[curtistactical]

I've been using this 7075 blast baffle (which is the same on the other side) for some hundreds of rounds, largely Remington Subsonic in .22lr, but also several flavours of subsonic CCI and a few dozen higher velocity cartridges. It is starting to show slight pitting near the entry point but seems likely to take some thousands of shots before structural worries arise. A thin layer of soft lithium grease applied every few magazines has proven invaluable in preventing most carbon build-up - this blast baffle is the only one in the suppressor showing any black at all.

I did try a flatter entry point per the recommendation of several professional makers contributing to this forum and some imagery found on manufacturer's websites. Tried this modification in the suppressor for my old French pistol with a 4" barrel as well as with my newer takedown rifle in the same calibre (this being a reflex suppressor with more K baffles and a ported 10" barrel), but the sharper cone curving away definitely resulted in a quieter report (both audibly compared and using numbers from my very consistent, if very cheap SPL meter), which is further quieted when using similar entrances to my K baffles - I've since put the experimental K baffles which I had cut flat for about a 2mm radius around their bores into an air rifle suppressor, on a weapon which is fairly quiet already, such that the noisier result of that failed experiment is not very important. A sharp edge adjacent to the bore has proven, for me at least, to be substantially quieter for both blast baffles and K baffles.

I agree with you
http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t64 ... k1plzy.jpg

[Rich V]

I just machine a flat face on the rear of the first baffle and drill two .125" holes at the outer edge of the flange to bleed into the first chamber(this makes use of that air space on the first baffle) or you could just make a 45deg cone style blast baffle. Both ways work equally well it just depends on which one fits better with your overall design.
Joe

Thanks Joe

[daviscustom]

Thanks for posting this Joe....makes me feel like I have learned a few things after all, even if it was mostly gut guesstimations instead of hands-on experience. I appreciate you sharing some of things you have learned along the way. I see you have been on the forum since 2014.... How long have you had your 07/02?

I have had my 07 since 2010 and my SOT since 2011. I worked for another unnamed 07/02 5 years before getting mine.

I can think of nothing I would rather do, but no manufactures close by to get started like that. I guess that may be a good thing..... someday.

[whiterussian1974]

I agree with you
http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t64 ... k1plzy.jpg

So Dater Hole shouldn't be used? Maybe (4) 1/8" holes symetrically located around the outer circumferance? Or maybe halfmoon 3/8" holes?

What's the purpose of Dater Hole?

[curtistactical]

Thanks for posting this Joe....makes me feel like I have learned a few things after all, even if it was mostly gut guesstimations instead of hands-on experience. I appreciate you sharing some of things you have learned along the way. I see you have been on the forum since 2014.... How long have you had your 07/02?

I have had my 07 since 2010 and my SOT since 2011. I worked for another unnamed 07/02 5 years before getting mine.

I can think of nothing I would rather do, but no manufactures close by to get started like that. I guess that may be a good thing..... someday.

Just get your 07 FFL then send in your SOT. You can easily make enough money to pay for everything and just take your time and slowly build it up. My shop sure didn't happen over night, then it burnt down and I got to start over again. Right now I am still working a 40hr a week job in a machine shop so I can sink all the money back into the shop, my wife likes getting the check for the bills on time and it frees up the money made in the shop to build it up. The key is just don't get in a hurry and don't finance it and you will be happy.
Joe

[John A.]

I would like to add a couple of things here. I don't have experience with some of these, but I do want to make a few notes if I may. Hopefully I will be able to take away some, and leave some info.

Since we can't just let this go I suppose its time to put up or shut up. For the know everything and want to argue about it few, answer these questions. I know the answers because I have done the testing to prove it.
1)Given the same number of baffles which will have more effect on bullet destabilization/point of impact shift?
A) K Baffle
B) Cone Baffle
C) Clipped Cone Baffle

A. I've never used one, so don't know.
B. Cones seem to be pretty accurate due to directing the gasses away from the bullet path equally. *HOWEVER, when a bullet leaves the barrel (even with a good crown), the gas does not always leave the muzzle equally.

Reference video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y9apnbI6GA

c. I assume you mean Dr. Dater holes?

3) Does a silencer need a shoulder to index on?

No, but I feel better about it if it does.

4) Will an inverted cone as the blast baffle have a negative or positive effect on accuracy?

I would think negative since it directs the gas toward the bullet. It may not affect it near the end of the suppressor, but there is a lot of pressure near the barrel muzzle.

5) Will a larger bore diameter in the baffles help accuracy?

Doubt it. Too tight isn't good for obvious reasons, but too loose will hurt suppression ratings.

6) Should a blast baffle be ported?
A) No port
B) Symetrical port
C) Asymetrical port

Curious to the answer in this, but I think is dependant on the amount of pressure and the spacing from the muzzle. If not, I am still interested in hearing the answer.

This could make more FRP.

7) Does it affect accuracy if the bore of the suppressor is not concentric with the firearm bore even if there are no baffle strikes?

Probably. Likely I think.

Can a muzzle brake affect accuracy just like a silencer?

Yes.

9) Is it better to have the barrel threads a touch on the tight side or a touch on the loose side?

Loose, but correct would be the right answer

10) Do most silencers reduce recoil and provide faster target acquisition?
A) Handgun
B) Rifle

yes

[whiterussian1974]

Just found this old post of LavaRed explaining why Dater Holes might be counterproductive.
viewtopic.php?t=108665#p846442

[curtistactical]

Just found this old post of LavaRed explaining why Dater Holes might be counterproductive.
viewtopic.php?t=108665#p846442

I can explain this pretty easy. If you look at the baffle he added the dater hole to it also has a mouse hole. The pressure coming through the dater hole will be much higher than the pressure of the gas being redirected to the mouse hole, the gas will be forced the wrong direction through the mouse hole causing who knows what kind of funky things to happen right at the first baffle. Dater holes work on rimfire and handguns if done correctly, they have to lead to a chamber sealed off from the next baffle.

[whiterussian1974]

LavaRed was referencing the Brayton Cycle and how it lowers efficiency.
Says that if holes are used, the blast chamber should be reduced.
I'm too sleepy to make sense of his theories tonight. Maybe after a few hrs sleep.

This was the thread and post where he mentions his theory. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=108362&hilit=Brayt ... 25#p846041

[curtistactical]

LavaRed was referencing the Brayton Cycle and how it lowers efficiency.
Says that if holes are used, the blast chamber should be reduced.
I'm too sleepy to make sense of his theories tonight. Maybe after a few hrs sleep.

That is correct, you do have to figure the volume into the blast chamber. Its not one for one on volume though, I don't have any formula for figuring this out either its just a trial and error thing.

[LavaRed]

Wow! Do those posts bring back some memories! Also, I've been out of the loop for quite a while!
In those three years, a lot has changed. There's a bunch of dead ends that I have forgotten, and a lot of successes that I have set in stone, probably to the detriment of my experimentation. And I have only really designed one platform which is novel.
At any rate, it reminded me of Historian's snorkel and how I thought it was a frequency shifter at the time. In the years since, I've come to understand that it was working as something very different.
I still do maintain that the Brayton Cycle is the key, however. And I've come to realize there is no rule of thumb on blast chambers. Probably what works best from a pure geometry point of view, tho.
There is one important insight that I did gather, and it will be put to the test in the near future, however.

[bakerjw]

Very good thread with lots of data.

Keep it on track and take pissing matches to PM if necessary.

[propeine]

Just get your 07 FFL then send in your SOT. You can easily make enough money to pay for everything and just take your time and slowly build it up. My shop sure didn't happen over night, then it burnt down and I got to start over again. Right now I am still working a 40hr a week job in a machine shop so I can sink all the money back into the shop, my wife likes getting the check for the bills on time and it frees up the money made in the shop to build it up. The key is just don't get in a hurry and don't finance it and you will be happy.
Joe

Exactly what I tried to do while carrying a full time job. Borough Zoning said no though. Instead I would need a commercial/industrial space and the associated rent that goes with it now instead of working out of my garage doing Cerakote to start with and getting into more as time, skill and money allowed.

[Capt. Link.]

Where did the rest of the thread go?

Every once in a while our super hero comes in to clean up the mess the children make.
That's why you should not play with the trolls and keep on topic.

Trying to keep on topic the Dater hole was not invented by Dater.He may have defined its roll in the evolution of the K baffle though.
My other point was the mouse hole in the skirt.I know this was abandoned but at the same time K's were put on the scrap heap for rifle calibers as new tech arrived.I was informed many years ago this hole helped create a second cross bore jet.Has anyone done any testing if this helped rifle calibers or was it a ill conceived thought.

[whiterussian1974]

I'm also sad that 1st post and our answers to that post were removed. It showed our thinking prior to recieving the Jewels of Experience.

[a_canadian]

Indeed, it seems in this one case I find myself in agreement with the troll on a point. The moderator seems to have made errors. Here's the text of CurtisTactical's questions with answers post, which I saved the other day:

1)Given the same number of baffles which will have more effect on bullet destabilization/point of impact shift?
A) K Baffle
B) Cone Baffle
C) Clipped Cone Baffle

A) Will create the most cross bore turbulence to upset the bullet flight.
B) Will create the least amount of turbulence in the bullet path
C) Will create turbulence but it does not jet the gas across the bullet path, it will have a minor affect on bullet flight.


2)What will it change if you index ports/clips differently?
A) All ports lined up
B) Ports indexed 90 deg apart
C) Ports indexed 180 deg apart

A) Point of impact will shift, bullet flight will remain stable.
B) Accuracy will be affected, bullet will be destabilized. More noticeable on lower velocity rounds.
C) Point of impact shift will be minimized, bullet will remain stable.


3) Does a silencer need a shoulder to index on?

Yes, whether it be a shoulder on the rear of the suppressor or locating on crown of the barrel. Threads alone are not enough to properly locate a suppressor.


4) Will an inverted cone as the blast baffle have a negative or positive effect on accuracy?

An inverted cone will destroy accuracy, it forces the gas into a bottle neck around the bullet seriously upsetting bullet flight.



5) Will a larger bore diameter in the baffles help accuracy?

No as long as the suppressor is concentric to the bore. If there is a concentricity issue the larger the bore the less effect there will be on bullet flight.


6) Should a blast baffle be ported?
A) No port
B) Symetrical port
C) Asymetrical port

A) Will be the best choice for accuracy and reflex suppressors.
B) Will be better for low velocity rounds such as rimfire and handguns where accuracy is not as much of a goal as ultimate suppression.
C) An asymmetrical port should never be used in a blast baffle, no matter the round it will destroy accuracy.



7) Does it affect accuracy if the bore of the suppressor is not concentric with the firearm bore even if there are no baffle strikes?

Yes. The more the bullet path is off center the more bullet flight will be affected, usually just a point of impact problem and not a destabilization issue.



Can a muzzle brake affect accuracy just like a silencer?

Yes. A muzzle brake works like baffles with no tube, same idea just doesn't trap the gas. Flash hiders on the other hand have little to no effect.



9) Is it better to have the barrel threads a touch on the tight side or a touch on the loose side?

You always want the threads a touch on the loose side to let the suppressor square up on the locating surface.



10) Do most silencers reduce recoil and provide faster target acquisition?
A) Handgun
B) Rifle

A) On a handgun a suppressor will reduce recoil but acts as a huge pendulum on the end slowing recovery time and shot to shot acquisition.
B) In almost every case a suppressor on a rifle will reduce recoil helping with shot recovery and faster follow up shots. This is more noticeable on long range shooting where the recoil reduction will help in keeping the target in view. On SBR CQB rifles the added length and weight can slow target acquisition some however the recoil reduction will help with follow up shots.



Joseph Jones
Curtis Tactical

[whiterussian1974]

You can't silence ME!!!
--- Original Answers:
"Caveat: Just my guesses w no actual testing.

1. (A) Ks
2. I'm not sure.
3. No. It can "index" on muzzle mouth.
4. Probably positive. But I have no theory to back that up.
5. Probably. Less bow wave interference.
6. (C) "Dater Hole" I'd love a link to his paper. ?
7. Yes. The side where baffle lips are closer will tend to shove bullet away, thus inducing yaw instability.
8. Or " " as written: Yes. Same principles.
9. Don't know.
10-A1: Yes to recoil.
10-A2a: If Reflex aiming then yes. Can sight down tube rather than using sights. The added sight distance helps gain rough picture, but not precise aiming.
10-A2b: If Iron Sights then no. The added mass will cause more muzzle drift and take slightly longer to aquire proper sight picture.
10-B: Somewhat. Increase in mass spreads Newtons over more time. Gases also push forward against each successive baffle causing reaction mass to counteract borejet.
And muzzle mass stabilizes rifle where it caused pistol muzzle to drift."