Rules of thumb for suppressor design

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propeine
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by propeine » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:41 pm

gunny50 wrote:"Historian"

Cut pipe with 45 / 60 degree angle, than heat tred hot in Kiln, and forge over a mandril with the right inner shape.

Gunny
We're I forging one I'd start with a flat plate, draw it into a cup, continue drawing one side deeper, then Pierce the hole last.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by a_canadian » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:09 pm

I'd expect somewhat radical thickness variation with the drawn plate option. With a hot-forged pipe you'd see increases in thickness here and there which could be carved away, but stretching a plate could render some excessively weak areas. Going to a thicker plate to compensate would increase both distortion and difficulty, while still leaving the need to machine away excess thickness in the spacer portion - and holding such a part by the shaped end in a lathe could prove challenging unless you had a shaped collet to bolt it into through the centre hole... which wouldn't be drilled yet, as chucking it in the lathe would require first truing the spacer. Seems forging the pipe would be easier all around.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by gunny50 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:10 pm

propeine wrote:
gunny50 wrote:"Historian"

Cut pipe with 45 / 60 degree angle, than heat tred hot in Kiln, and forge over a mandril with the right inner shape.

Gunny
We're I forging one I'd start with a flat plate, draw it into a cup, continue drawing one side deeper, then Pierce the hole last.
That is a great solution I was thinking of a solution where one has a pipe and hammer a simple machined mandrel heat treated in the same kiln. no Press. ;-)

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http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135514
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by propeine » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:36 pm

a_canadian wrote:I'd expect somewhat radical thickness variation with the drawn plate option. With a hot-forged pipe you'd see increases in thickness here and there which could be carved away, but stretching a plate could render some excessively weak areas. Going to a thicker plate to compensate would increase both distortion and difficulty, while still leaving the need to machine away excess thickness in the spacer portion - and holding such a part by the shaped end in a lathe could prove challenging unless you had a shaped collet to bolt it into through the centre hole... which wouldn't be drilled yet, as chucking it in the lathe would require first truing the spacer. Seems forging the pipe would be easier all around.
Start with a smaller diameter plate and spread the edges out with a cross pein prior to drawing it if the walls are too thick. There are calculations you can do for draw depth vs starting material though. I bet you wouldn't need to spread the edges first. This leaves the center thicker until you draw. Then you spot heat the center to start your cup. Go take play dough and see. Material moves the same just the force required is different. I spent a few years blacksmithing (mostly bladesmithing) and in theory that's how I would do it. In practice it may change. If I can turn a railway clip into a wakizashi with largely hammer forged bevels I'm pretty sure I could, with practice again make one of those baffles. Making them all the same is another story. I'd 3d print it and make a mold then cast the things out of aluminum if I really wanted them though.

Go ask a blacksmith to make you a period correct fleshlight.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by fastfire » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:02 pm

I've long had an interest in casting more than just lead, time to learn lost wax casting?

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by Historian » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:02 pm

fastfire wrote:I've long had an interest in casting more than just lead, time to learn lost wax casting?
Add the recently announced advances in 3D printing incorporating
metal impregnated inks many previously impossible surfaces can be modeled.
E.g., Plucker's Conoids*

And configures in wax for lost wax casting are unlimited.

Again I am impressed by the depth of knowledge possessed members
of this rare site. Kudos, guys.



* << http://www.cutoutfoldup.com/939-hyperbo ... conoid.php >>

<< http://www.livescience.com/53241-flawle ... eated.html >>

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:12 pm

propeine wrote:Go ask a blacksmith to make you a period correct fleshlight.
Did you really mean "fleshlight?" Other terms are fifi, jack rag, towel roll. What would they place inside fleshlight? Vegetables are commonly used nowadays. Wonder if they did the same back then?
---
Great catch Hist!
Similar to some earlier designs. I wonder if anyone has tried Tunsten Boride printing? Used in ballistic plate. Would this be a viable material? Or maybe the foam metal latice that was tried in the '60-70s? Allow tiny 1/64" bleed holes around the lip of the far baffle/endcap.
Image
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by Historian » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:37 pm

whiterussian1974 wrote:
propeine wrote:Go ask a blacksmith to make you a period correct fleshlight.
Did you really mean "fleshlight?" Other terms are fifi, jack rag, towel roll. What would they place inside fleshlight? Vegetables are commonly used nowadays. Wonder if they did the same back then?
---
Great catch Hist!
Similar to some earlier designs. I wonder if anyone has tried Tunsten Boride printing? Used in ballistic plate. Would this be a viable material? Or maybe the foam metal latice that was tried in the '60-70s? Allow tiny 1/64" bleed holes around the lip of the far baffle/endcap.
Image
I have just stopped laughing with tears. Thank you WR for your sharp eye.
People need to get a grip on their raucous humor.
Old NY 1930's lower East side "warm liver in a cigar box" admonition. :)

On another note, do I have a baffle design just right for the latest ceramic 3D printer:

Clebsch Diagonal Cubic Surface:

<< https://www.flickr.com/photos/sketcheso ... 3741904714 >>

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:57 pm

Historian wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:Similar to some earlier designs. I wonder if anyone has tried Tunsten Boride printing? Used in ballistic plate. Would this be a viable material? Or maybe the foam metal latice that was tried in the '60-70s? Allow tiny 1/64" bleed holes around the lip of the far baffle/endcap.
I have just stopped laughing with tears. Thank you WR for your sharp eye.
---
On another note, do I have a baffle design just right for the latest ceramic 3D printer:
Clebsch Diagonal Cubic Surface:
<< https://www.flickr.com/photos/sketcheso ... 3741904714 >>
Image
Sweet design! Love to hear it tested. Maybe add ridges to defract reflections.

A New take on Omega concept. Essentially cones w port that vent into coaxial/other plane sumps.
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by propeine » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:46 pm

whiterussian1974 wrote:
propeine wrote:Go ask a blacksmith to make you a period correct fleshlight.
Did you really mean "fleshlight?" Other terms are fifi, jack rag, towel roll. What would they place inside fleshlight? Vegetables are commonly used nowadays. Wonder if they did the same back then?
---
Great catch Hist!
Similar to some earlier designs. I wonder if anyone has tried Tunsten Boride printing? Used in ballistic plate. Would this be a viable material? Or maybe the foam metal latice that was tried in the '60-70s? Allow tiny 1/64" bleed holes around the lip of the far baffle/endcap.
Image
Yes I really meant fleshlight. The ruger baffle looks like a messed up version of one IMO.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:10 am

propeine wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:
propeine wrote:Go ask a blacksmith to make you a period correct fleshlight.
Did you really mean "fleshlight?" Other terms are fifi, jack rag, towel roll. What would they place inside fleshlight? Vegetables are commonly used nowadays. Wonder if they did the same back then?
Yes I really meant fleshlight. The ruger baffle looks like a messed up version of one IMO.
Well, the labia anyway.

Georgia O;Keefe would be impressed.http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonmichaelpoff/ ... .liAYaNdYA
http://insatiablebooksluts.com/2013/08/ ... -you-guys/
ImageImage
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by fastfire » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:50 am

Ceramic 3d printed baffels?

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:07 am

fastfire wrote:Ceramic 3d printed baffels?
Sintered Ceramic is used for tank armor. 3D printing is similar and allows greater/finer complexity.
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by gunny50 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:09 am

whiterussian1974 wrote:
fastfire wrote:Ceramic 3d printed baffels?
Sintered Ceramic is used for tank armor. 3D printing is similar and allows greater/finer complexity.
There are several company's that sell wax material for the cheeper 3D printers, go from there.

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http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=135514
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=77913

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by Hard_ware » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:26 pm

gunny50 wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:
fastfire wrote:Ceramic 3d printed baffels?
Sintered Ceramic is used for tank armor. 3D printing is similar and allows greater/finer complexity.
There are several company's that sell wax material for the cheeper 3D printers, go from there.

Gunny
Wax model, green sand, and cast away. Machine for exact od and id. :D
Appears easier then turning and CNC.
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by Capt. Link. » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:36 pm

fastfire wrote:I've long had an interest in casting more than just lead, time to learn lost wax casting?
There is much more than lost wax casting for the home hobbyist today.One with the more intriguing is lost foam casting.If a rubber mould was made then filled with foam you might have a easy quick baffle making process.I once went through the laborious cope and drag meathead with green-sand to make my own hollow cannon balls.I learned to make wooden fuses and celebrated the 4th of July when I fired these projectiles full of magnesium powder into the air with my Cohorn mortar lacking a proper 13" seacoast model.Francis Scott Key would have been proud.
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by Hard_ware » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:04 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
fastfire wrote:I've long had an interest in casting more than just lead, time to learn lost wax casting?
There is much more than lost wax casting for the home hobbyist today.One with the more intriguing is lost foam casting.If a rubber mould was made then filled with foam you might have a easy quick baffle making process.I once went through the laborious cope and drag meathead with green-sand to make my own hollow cannon balls.I learned to make wooden fuses and celebrated the 4th of July when I fired these projectiles full of magnesium powder into the air with my Cohorn mortar lacking a proper 13" seacoast model.Francis Scott Key would have been proud.
Very cool 8)
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by silencer_kid » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:17 am

3D printing is cool, but to get good pieces with the accuracy needed it has to be done in a argon chamber. so although 3D printing has come to home table it still has limitations. so perhaps its still a 3D print and then finish on CNC or manual lathe.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by doubloon » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:31 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by propeine » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:32 am

silencer_kid wrote:3D printing is cool, but to get good pieces with the accuracy needed it has to be done in a argon chamber. so although 3D printing has come to home table it still has limitations. so perhaps its still a 3D print and then finish on CNC or manual lathe.
Not for lost wax? Metal 3D printers do of course but they are also still prohibitively expensive. A hot plastic extruder can be had from Best Buy or Barnes and Noble for less than 1000 though.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by silencer_kid » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:12 pm

propeine wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:3D printing is cool, but to get good pieces with the accuracy needed it has to be done in a argon chamber. so although 3D printing has come to home table it still has limitations. so perhaps its still a 3D print and then finish on CNC or manual lathe.
Not for lost wax? Metal 3D printers do of course but they are also still prohibitively expensive. A hot plastic extruder can be had from Best Buy or Barnes and Noble for less than 1000 though.
you mean use a plastic model to make a mold, then cast, then machine? thats a "complicated" process, might as well find a multi axis CNC machine to do it...... too pricey for the machine means either outsourcing the work, or capital investment.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by propeine » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:30 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
propeine wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:3D printing is cool, but to get good pieces with the accuracy needed it has to be done in a argon chamber. so although 3D printing has come to home table it still has limitations. so perhaps its still a 3D print and then finish on CNC or manual lathe.
Not for lost wax? Metal 3D printers do of course but they are also still prohibitively expensive. A hot plastic extruder can be had from Best Buy or Barnes and Noble for less than 1000 though.
you mean use a plastic model to make a mold, then cast, then machine? thats a "complicated" process, might as well find a multi axis CNC machine to do it...... too pricey for the machine means either outsourcing the work, or capital investment.
Yup although you could probably omit the machining step with a quality mold. Guys are building cans out of freeze plugs. Doesn't exactly scream precision device to me

Outsourcing for the form 1 builder has been determined by the ATF to cause the other party to be "in the business" as of last year. 3D printers are cheaper than a reasonable sized hobby lathe any more. Multi axis CNC not so much.

You can bet your ass Ruger is die casting those baffles. Possibly 3 miles from my house at one of their larger subcontractors actually.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by silencer_kid » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:01 pm

propeine wrote: You can bet your ass Ruger is die casting those baffles. Possibly 3 miles from my house at one of their larger subcontractors actually.
yeah, but those castings have a machining process on them? how do they stack and snap together so well? is the casting that precise. may be so, but i thought some of it is machined. their baffle is likley designed around the process and not vice-versa, etc.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by propeine » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:13 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
propeine wrote: You can bet your ass Ruger is die casting those baffles. Possibly 3 miles from my house at one of their larger subcontractors actually.
yeah, but those castings have a machining process on them? how do they stack and snap together so well? is the casting that precise. may be so, but i thought some of it is machined. their baffle is likley designed around the process and not vice-versa, etc.
This says 3-6 thousandths
http://www.paceind.com/sites/default/fi ... s-2009.pdf

This picture makes it look like the 2 mating surfaces are possibly cleaned up just based on surface finish
Image

If you weren't worried about CTA then 3-6 thousandths is pretty damn good.

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Re: Rules of thumb for suppressor design

Post by Capt. Link. » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:00 pm

Ah to live in the gunpowder valley fishing in the locks and on the Housatonic river again.

If you can fashion a treadle lathe to make a round plug and hand carve wood,wax,or clay anyone using lost wax can reproduce these complex baffles.The question yet to be answered is will they be effective in other calibers.I suspect that .45acp would be a candidate.
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