Question on legal limits of bore clearance?

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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doubloon
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Re: Question on legal limits of bore clearance?

Post by doubloon » Thu May 26, 2016 8:45 pm

curtistactical wrote:...
You actually can have a smaller bore by using wipes, it would interesting to say the least if you machined baffles smaller than the bullet diameter, I think it would be more of a liability issue than a legal one when it blew up in some ones face when they shot the marked caliber through it.
Liability IS legal. :wink:

But now we're back to why mark the bore at all?

Because it's the low hanging fruit in the modification detection game. The ATF wants something on paper they can stick you with that's easy to check like a dowel rod to check barrel length. JMO, it may not be the reason they haul you off but a "22lr" suppressor with a .475" bore will end up being just one more charge on the pile you have to clear, a little more time on the sentence or maybe the chit that ups you into the next felony bracket.

Stupid games stupid prizes. :mrgreen:
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Lilpooh
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Re: Question on legal limits of bore clearance?

Post by Lilpooh » Thu May 26, 2016 10:27 pm

Does the Econo-Can have caliber markings? The pics I seen on the net, and videos (Hitchcock45) don't show the caliber markings of this silencer. Just curious.

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Re: Question on legal limits of bore clearance?

Post by pdsmith505 » Fri May 27, 2016 8:09 am

doubloon wrote:
curtistactical wrote:...
Because it's the low hanging fruit in the modification detection game. The ATF wants something on paper they can stick you with that's easy to check like a dowel rod to check barrel length. JMO, it may not be the reason they haul you off but a "22lr" suppressor with a .475" bore will end up being just one more charge on the pile you have to clear, a little more time on the sentence or maybe the chit that ups you into the next felony bracket.
This is the line of thought that I'm following.

In the event that you've garnered the ATF's attention, and they do take a look at your toys to make sure they are properly registered... take the scenario I posed earlier: burglar dispatched with a .45 pistol and a ".22" can.

It seems to me that they would look at the Form 1 saying it's a .22 can. They would look at the engravings on the can saying it's a .22 can. Then they would see the .5" bore that has .260" of clearance... that's four times the often recommended .060".

There is a strong case, in my mind, to be made that either
a) The bore was increased, which means it's a new can in the ATF's opinion, requiring a new Form 1 and tax stamp.
b) The information on the Form 1 was intentionally incorrect.

Both run afoul of the same tax code with the same $10,000/10 years penalty.

You might win in court, but by trying to be cute and registering the can as a .22, you've set yourself up for a fight.

The original thread over on The High Road centered around building a .30 cal can, and potentially being able to use it down the line on a .45-70. The caliber / bore disparity in that case is significantly smaller, but I still don't see what advantages there are in registering the can as a .30 cal when you think you might want to use it on the .45-70 down the line. All I see is a potential risk that could easily be mitigated by registering it as a .45 can.

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Re: Question on legal limits of bore clearance?

Post by crazyelece » Fri May 27, 2016 3:21 pm

furiousMG wrote:
So basically the charge would be possession of an unregistered silencer, which you would then be in a position of defending yourself against.

Now, in this position, you bear the burden of proof. You have to prove that you are not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

How likely is it that you would be able to do so, when common sense says "don't do that" yet you chose to because the law doesn't specifically say you can't.
I would disagree. If you paid your 200 dollars and received your approved form 1 then your can is registered. You can not modify it later but you can design and construct it however you like. The length and required markings must match the form of course. If you make it from beer cans and duct tape it makes you an idiot but its not criminal regardless of bore size. If you make it from 3" sewer pipe and baffle it with glazed donuts it makes you an idiot but not a criminal. And if you use five feet of PVC pipe with no baffles it would make you an idiot but not a criminal. So they would lack the legal standing required to send you to a work camp to be gang raped until you bleed out through your anus.
Quotes don't work when you take them out of context.

The charge of possession of an unregistered silencer stems from #1 and/or #2 which you didn't quote.

In which ATF has deemed your approved form 1 not relevant to the silencer before them.

I agree there are, and people have made, some stupid form1 silencers but that is not the point.

Remember in my scenario - ATF has deemed you have possession of silencer Y. Your defense to this is that you are NOT in possession of silencer Y, but in possession of silencer X and have an approved form1 for it. The burden of proof is on YOU, not the prosecution, to prove this claim beyond a reasonable doubt to 12 people who likely thought silencers in general were illegal outside of military and law enforcement before they came to jury duty that day.

So is legal to do? - Anything is legal as long as it's not written in law, or case law, to the contrary

Is it worth doing? might be the better question to ask

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Re: Question on legal limits of bore clearance?

Post by doubloon » Fri May 27, 2016 11:07 pm

crazyelece wrote:...
Is it worth doing? might be the better question to ask
Si.
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Re: Question on legal limits of bore clearance?

Post by Joker31D » Sat May 28, 2016 7:47 am

I think the one part of the Evidence most are overlooking is on the other side of the Can,

What did you thread it for? .578, odd for a 22lr. not a crime.

What caliber was the firearm that you threaded it onto. 45acp Hmm sounds like a violation.

What Caliber does it say in your application. 22LR Yep, Quacks like a duck.

The ATF is no stranger to prosecuting people for using things outside their intended uses. When you buy a short upper intended for pistol use and put it on a Rifle lower you will be prosecuted if it is found. You are using it for something outside its design.

The Sigbrace is the same thing. Its not the product, its the use of it (They use this a lot lately because the use has outdated the legal terminology) The manufacturers mark a caliber to be able to warranty them, to designate their intended use, you use it outside of that, its your burden.

Same thing here, save the money for your legal defense fund.

Our States attorney here will hold you until they make damn certain you defended yourself and they cant make a case on you. The whole trayvon martin case ruined that for everyone here. No more shoot, common sense and release here. you will spend time in jail here if you defend yourself. Even if the bad guy kicks in your door in the middle of the night with a swastika tattooed on his forehead you shoot him, you will spend 72hours in holding or longer if they can convince the judge you fired a shot in your home shooting range and hit the bad guy. Things have gotten much worse lately in FL because of Northern liberal newsmedia.
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