Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

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Historian
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Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by Historian »

<< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdVUBFr ... .744775498 >>

A beautiful presentation of an integrated design implementing
the KISS principle that should be remembered and
not lost to history. Part of the SOE* innovative tool armory.

On the WeaponsGuild site exist a legion of information on
this piece.

One wonders what a modern implantation of this design
would be in .22 with the unique Ruger hyper surface design.

When the HPA passes one could imagine building a
.22 Wellrod using the Ruger baffles.

* << https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_O ... _Executive >>

Leo Marks remarkable book:
"Between Silk & Cyanide".

<< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Between_Silk_and_Cyanide >>
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Capt. Link.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by Capt. Link. »

That is a superb video. Imagine .45acp or 5.7x28 for effective calibers.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by BinaryAndy »

I've never quite understood why nobody makes a modern interpretation of the Welrod. I've actually thought about making a vaguely Welrod-inspired bolt-action 22 pistol out of a Savage MKII or something. Maybe someday I'll make a proper replica in 9mm.

That is a fantastic video. I wish I could get a hold of the CAD models used.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by jreinke »

B&T is trying to get ATF approval to import their VP-9 "veterinary pistol" which is a modern Welrod with a detachable can. I'd buy one just for shits and giggles.

https://www.bt-ag.ch/shop/eng/category/bt-vp9
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by Historian »

BinaryAndy wrote:I've never quite understood why nobody makes a modern interpretation of the Welrod. I've actually thought about making a vaguely Welrod-inspired bolt-action 22 pistol out of a Savage MKII or something. Maybe someday I'll make a proper replica in 9mm.

That is a fantastic video. I wish I could get a hold of the CAD models used.
+1

The Braverman* .22 pen gun was your concept in the extreme ... and lousy to fire.
And not an AOW.

There even was one with a suppressor** on it. Gag.


* << http://pengun.com/theguns.htm >>

** << https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vNwgPqP0MFs/hqdefault.jpg >>
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by a_canadian »

If you're able to view stuff on nfatalk, here's a link to a 20-page thread where Stan1, gunsmith extraordinaire, Stan1, walks us through his Welrod build. Two pistols actually. Friggin' brilliant.
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11855
Historian
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by Historian »

a_canadian wrote:If you're able to view stuff on nfatalk, here's a link to a 20-page thread where Stan1, gunsmith extraordinaire, Stan1, walks us through his Welrod build. Two pistols actually. Friggin' brilliant.
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11855
The machining in the mentioned article is top notch. In particular
making the lugs on the bolt. Going over the steps in the process
of making the bolt all the machining can be done on a lathe.
But trying to imagine making the lugs all I can come up with
is to use a milling cutter on the annular part out of which the
final opposing lugs will result.

Are there any pointers on information for a set up in actually
cutting the lugs?
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by a_canadian »

I don't recall seeing setup stuff. Too bad, as I can't wrap my head around how those recesses or even the bolt lugs would be cut. But he says they're silky smooth fitting once lapped in, which makes me want to learn how to do that...
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php ... post190956

Oh wait, here's a bit of his bolt ways cutting setup with a nice close-up:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showpost.php?p ... stcount=29
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by Historian »

a_canadian wrote:I don't recall seeing setup stuff. Too bad, as I can't wrap my head around how those recesses or even the bolt lugs would be cut. But he says they're silky smooth fitting once lapped in, which makes me want to learn how to do that...
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php ... post190956

Oh wait, here's a bit of his bolt ways cutting setup with a nice close-up:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showpost.php?p ... stcount=29
Thanks for pointer. NFA site is a wonderful site of creative
and innovative folks. The Jaco builds are inspirational.
A 5 pound hammer, sheet metal, rivets, etc. and voila,
a .45 liberator pistol.

Back to making the Wellrod, broaching the cylinder is easy but
imagining the set up for machining the two lugs took some cogitating
and some research. Lead to a picture of milling the annular portion off
center to remove the major portion of material. Then a smaller mill
for the ridges.

When some down time presents itself soon shall try a test with Delrin rod
as it is easy for prototyping to iron out process steps.
John Browning carved all the parts of the 1911 in wood to prototype
and refine the mechanical system function.

A plastic Wellrod mockup cap gun.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by MG_Willy »

Wasnt someone on here working on one? I think Bindersquint?
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by whiterussian1974 »

Historian wrote:
BinaryAndy wrote:I've never quite understood why nobody makes a modern interpretation of the Welrod. I've actually thought about making a vaguely Welrod-inspired bolt-action 22 pistol.
The Braverman* .22 pen gun was your concept in the extreme ... and lousy to fire.

There even was one with a suppressor** on it. Gag.
* << http://pengun.com/theguns.htm >>
** << https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vNwgPqP0MFs/hqdefault.jpg >>
Image
A large cigar tube would work well. Twist the end 2" and then it bends down into a grip w a trigger that extends forward. Or the trigger could pop up from the top, and the thumb would depress it.
========
The Gemtech 'Mist' has a similarly integrated design. So do several other Mnfrs. But none of them use wipes.

The GemTech 'Aurora' was issued to certain USAF Flight Crews. Like A-10 pilots over Bosnia and RC-135Vs over "Territorial Boundaries." It consisted of a series of grease coated wipes that were replaced at ~20-25rds. But no barrel porting.
---
The problem with 9mm for Mil use is the non-expanding ammo restrictions. That's why .45acp has been so beloved by SO troops.

Since 9x19mm is already a lower-power cartridge, bleeding off extra gas near the chamber makes it less effective. And wipes require changing.

I prefer the ported .22 pistols and carbines that use washers as baffles. They allow gas leakage and expansion, yet allow target practice and removing lights/security systems if this is part of the Op.

But a large OD rd is needed for any Stopping Power. Maybe even .50GI for pistol.
---
If B&T linked w Glock lowers, then I would buy the B&T upper. That way it could be an integral design.

Many Animal Control/Park Service Ofrs use suppressed carbines for dangerous animal control. Some use Orange-stocked vet tranq darts-firing shotguns. This is for injured house pets that they are trying to save, but who are agitated and would fight if anyone tried to save them.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by Capt. Link. »

whiterussian1974 wrote:
The problem with 9mm for Mil use is the non-expanding ammo restrictions. That's why .45acp has been so beloved by SO troops.

Since 9x19mm is already a lower-power cartridge, bleeding off extra gas near the chamber makes it less effective. And wipes require changing.

But a large OD rd is needed for any Stopping Power. Maybe even .50GI for pistol.
While I'm not a huge fan of 9mm ball I have used very effective mil spec 9mm heavy ball out of a ported barrel that was very good,accurate & silent.This ammo was supplied to us via the old super vel corp and used in the H&K MP5SD and the model 39 S&W using the hush puppy w/ frame locks.I would not use it in any semi auto less the CZ-75 as it was super hot.I'm not a fan of wipes but they do have a place in the military and we were greasing them way back then.
Large calibers have some desirable traits the most important one for any subsonic suppressed use is penetration and wounding ability.There is little doubt that Reed Knight took that into consideration with the 30 caliber R2 pistol and rifle.
I have advocated two extreme caliber choices for a modern Welrod one being the 5.7x28.This using heavy ball would be very effective for close diplomacy and could be confused with rifle fire.The other would be a 30 caliber which several already exist.
The main reason the Welrod has not been produced as it was designed is its a AOW w/ a suppressor needing two stamps.If you attach the pistol grip to the frame or render it unusable without it being attached then it becomes a pistol and the suppressor can be a separate tax item.
-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by whiterussian1974 »

Capt. Link. wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:But a large OD rd is needed for any Stopping Power. Maybe even .50GI for pistol.
If B&T linked w Glock lowers, then I would buy the B&T upper. That way it could be an integral design.
The main reason the Welrod has not been produced as it was designed is its a AOW w/ a suppressor needing two stamps.If you attach the pistol grip to the frame or render it unusable without it being attached then it becomes a pistol and the suppressor can be a separate tax item.
-CL
Using the Glock lower frame, B&T could mount a 'Pringles can' upper and use a .50GI cartridge. No AoW. Just a serialized integral can that could be unscrewed from the upper if needed. "For cleaning and inspection."

Or even use on another platform. Without wipes, it might be a good mid-powered carbine can. Just port the bbl a few inches behind the muzzle.

That's something that I would buy. As a Home Def pistol if nothing else. Super quiet, great temporary stretch cavity, permanent crush cavity, deep penetration.

Maybe even an expanding base like with shotgun wad cups. Have the base petals flare during deceleration upon impact with target. An Inverse Hornady plastic nose plug placed in the base.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by whiterussian1974 »

Capt. Link. wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:But a large OD rd is needed for any Stopping Power. Maybe even .50GI for pistol.
I have advocated two extreme caliber choices for a modern Welrod one being the 5.7x28.This using heavy ball would be very effective for close diplomacy and could be confused with rifle fire.The other would be a 30 caliber which several already exist.
Do you mean for Mil or Civ use?
I don't see what confusing the 5.7 with a rifle would accomplish. Did the Maj Nadal Hassan's rampage AAR state that this was a confusing factor during the Post's Response?

For .30, do you mean (7.62×33mm) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine? Or 7.62×25mm Tokarev?

The benefit of the Welrod is the pressure lowering post chamber porting. So a small diameter highspeed rnd runs counter to this Theory. A lower Sectional Density would also face trouble fighting threw wipes and remaining stable. So accuracy would suffer and flight characteristics like precession/wobble and tumbling would probably be induced.

Maybe this tumble would be a benefit at close range.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by Capt. Link. »

whiterussian1974 wrote:
Capt. Link. wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:But a large OD rd is needed for any Stopping Power. Maybe even .50GI for pistol.
I have advocated two extreme caliber choices for a modern Welrod one being the 5.7x28.This using heavy ball would be very effective for close diplomacy and could be confused with rifle fire.The other would be a 30 caliber which several already exist.
Do you mean for Mil or Civ use?
I don't see what confusing the 5.7 with a rifle would accomplish. Did the Maj Nadal Hassan's rampage AAR state that this was a confusing factor during the Post's Response?

For .30, do you mean (7.62×33mm) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine? Or 7.62×25mm Tokarev?

The benefit of the Welrod is the pressure lowering post chamber porting. So a small diameter highspeed rnd runs counter to this Theory. A lower Sectional Density would also face trouble fighting threw wipes and remaining stable. So accuracy would suffer and flight characteristics like precession/wobble and tumbling would probably be induced.

Maybe this tumble would be a benefit at close range.
I never mentioned the use of high speed ammo or any desire to use wipes in a modern Welrod.The 5.7 can use 62gr ball and could be confused with possible sniper fire or other rifle armed troops same for 30 caliber using 175gr SMK bullets.This misinformation has its own purpose in warfare and covert operations.The added benefit would also be a very quiet system that could use AP ammo if the need was there.
-CL
You sometimes add information that is not stated.I rarely require reading between the lines and try to be clear.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by whiterussian1974 »

Capt. Link. wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:
Capt. Link. wrote: I never mentioned the use of high speed ammo or any desire to use wipes in a modern Welrod.The 5.7 can use 62gr ball and could be confused with possible sniper fire or other rifle armed troops same for 30 caliber using 175gr SMK bullets.This misinformation has its own purpose in warfare and covert operations.The added benefit would also be a very quiet system that could use AP ammo if the need was there.
-CL
You sometimes add information that is not stated.I rarely require reading between the lines and try to be clear.
Wipes were inherent to the original design. I didnt know that you were modifying the design. I also mentioned the use of bleeding off gas early into the coaxial chamber. But this would benefit large cal rds.

Using a 5.7 subsonic 62gr rd doesn't seem to have much benefit over a .22lr 60gr Aguilla.

Subsonic AP rds really don't have much benefit over FMJ.

Sorry for extrapolation from your post to allow me to ask further ?s. I was trying to save time and posts.
---
And I asked how a localized use of suppressed 5.7 would cause people to believe that they were under Sniper fire. I asked if the Maj Nadal Hassan Fort Hood attack benefited him by confusion caused by the use of a 5.7. If the 5.7 is subsonic I don't see how people would be confused about sniper fire. If Supersonic, the ballistic crack would localize the Origin. So defeating the 'over the hill'/'in the woodline' Sniper Theory.

I'm not criticizing. I'm asking for clarification to educate myself. I recognize your superior experience and knowledge, and am trying to learn from you.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by whiterussian1974 »

Image
I don't know anything about this design. But it seems like something that a Glock lower could host a 3rd Party suppressed upper on.

Otherwise I'll hope for an Evolved version of the SilCo Osprey baffles. It seems like there is plenty of room for improvement in the design's function by using advanced Geometry.
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

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Talking strictly about a modern version of the Welrod as a tactile tool:
A smaller caliber with greater penetration would be a logical avenue.
Reasons are better ballistics near and far plus suppression levels would be greater than a larger caliber.
Ideally in covert operations the elimination of sentry's plus targeted items and the operation will be over before it is detected.The misinformation of using the same ballistic fingerprint as other weapons can hide who and how the operation was conducted thus depriving them of intelligence.If a 5.45 caliber bullet was recovered it would be somewhat confusing as only a few com bloc nations use that caliber.
A 62gr FMJ bullet is far superior to a 60gr SSS lead bullet.The tendency of FMJ bullets to flip with impact in a fluid medium is well known.Its ability to penetrate multiple layers of clothing plus thick bone is far superior plus the velocity at range all come into play.
While using subsonic projectiles and silent weapons have their uses a supersonic suppressed gunshot can be extremely confusing to eye witness accounts of where the shot came from.Using various "exotic" munitions can increase flexibility and misinformation thus increasing the odds of success.All of the above applies to a 30 caliber as well.Such cartridges as the mini whisper or the TC 30 Herrett or even the 300blk or .221 Fireball all have possibility's.
I would increase the ease of use under pressure and include a shoulder stock.You might be able to use the stock for storage like the AR-7 class of rifle.While the choices of cartridges is open for debate and study I'm only putting the idea out for discussion.
-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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Re: Wellrod SOE WW2 pistol/silencer

Post by gunny50 »

Capt. Link. wrote:Talking strictly about a modern version of the Welrod as a tactile tool:
A smaller caliber with greater penetration would be a logical avenue.
Reasons are better ballistics near and far plus suppression levels would be greater than a larger caliber.
Ideally in covert operations the elimination of sentry's plus targeted items and the operation will be over before it is detected.The misinformation of using the same ballistic fingerprint as other weapons can hide who and how the operation was conducted thus depriving them of intelligence.If a 5.45 caliber bullet was recovered it would be somewhat confusing as only a few com bloc nations use that caliber.
A 62gr FMJ bullet is far superior to a 60gr SSS lead bullet.The tendency of FMJ bullets to flip with impact in a fluid medium is well known.Its ability to penetrate multiple layers of clothing plus thick bone is far superior plus the velocity at range all come into play.
While using subsonic projectiles and silent weapons have their uses a supersonic suppressed gunshot can be extremely confusing to eye witness accounts of where the shot came from.Using various "exotic" munitions can increase flexibility and misinformation thus increasing the odds of success.All of the above applies to a 30 caliber as well.Such cartridges as the mini whisper or the TC 30 Herrett or even the 300blk or .221 Fireball all have possibility's.
I would increase the ease of use under pressure and include a shoulder stock.You might be able to use the stock for storage like the AR-7 class of rifle.While the choices of cartridges is open for debate and study I'm only putting the idea out for discussion.
-CL
Use the 30 luger parent case with 147 or even 168 grains. ;-)

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