New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:54 pm

Hello Guys,

Got recommended to this site from a few folks over at THR.

They said this is where all my questions could be answered. Been reading quite a bit before I got my user account.

First a little about myself. Got my first suppressor, a Gemtech, back in the 1990's before NFA trusts were popular and you had to do a LLC or LEO signoff. Got wise a few years ago and set up a NFA Trust, and paid again to transfer my goodies from my company to the trust. If you hate paying the tax, you will really hate paying it twice. At least I did not have to wait that time, LOL. Got a number of items in it now, and a few more waiting. So basically I know the process, experienced the pain, etc. I go the legal route, every time. With the new changes in how trusts are allowed to add items, I figured I needed to get some stamps on the way. Got some items pending, SBS/SBR type things.

What I don't have experience with is assembling or building a home made suppressor. I have basic hand tools, a drill press is probably the most exotic thing I have. However I do work with my hands and am pretty mechanically inclined.

This is why I am here hat in hand asking for help.




Will probably build two identical sized cans, as funds allow, and a third smaller one. My plan is to get the stamps, buy and assemble the first one, then wait on the second and third until next year. (Figuring a 4 month wait on approvals.)

I really want to get the electronic Form 1 filled out this week. Think my first concern is getting good dimensions and a general plan for that.


Suppressor #1.

300 Blackout and 5.56mm (and .308 if possible) I want this one to be as close to a do it all rifle suppressor for .30 cal. on down as I can make.

From lurking on this forum I found this link. I like the idea of cones and Titanium for the baffle stack for the first one.
https://zmachineworx.com/

Would using a 12 inch Titanium tube and endcaps from SD Tactical be a good choice? Will the parts fit?
http://sdtacticalarms.com/Solvent-Trap- ... _p_47.html

Will this allow me to build a good solid can that can handle a variety of calibers up to .308??

How would you do it differently?? Are their better sources?


Suppressor 2, basally the same size but with an aluminum tube and maybe stainless freeze plugs. This would be for a lighter calibers, and a less expensive build.

Suppressor 3, thinking a smaller 5.56mm dedicated can ('C' cell size??). Not a lot of thought into this one yet, but the clock is ticking down. (my 5.56 SBR will have a 10.5 inch barrel.)


I understand that I will not get the absolute performance of good commercially manufactured products due to me not having machining equipment, experience and other factors. Willing to accept bigger and heavier to work around that.


Am I one the right track?

Any suggestions, revisions, help is appreciated.


Mike


p.s. I want to get my terminology and verbiage correct. Do you 'assemble' a suppressor (like you would an AR rifle) or do you 'build' a suppressor (like you would an AK) in the manner I am asking about? Are cans, suppressors, moderators, silencers, etc. all interchangeable terms accepted here?

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:38 pm

MikeG wrote:p.s. I want to get my terminology and verbiage correct. Do you 'assemble' a suppressor (like you would an AR rifle) or do you 'build' a suppressor (like you would an AK) in the manner I am asking about? Are cans, suppressors, moderators, silencers, etc. all interchangeable terms accepted here?
NFA'34 and BATFE call it "manufacture" or "build."

Assembly would be from parts that are each serialized with separate #s and each having a $200 Tax. Then once you have the Form1 you "machine/make" the parts and then assemble them into a "build."

The Legal Terms are confusing at 1st, but highly important to remain legal. :?
---
Option A seems the best to me. That way you can do everything on all of your hosts until you are able to "specialize" build your others.

Yes, SDTA parts fit each other. Whether they fit your baffles, I can't say. You could always add shims or buff the extra material off if needed. But a little "play" is generally good. It allows easier disassembly for cleaning.

Just check with each MNFR to be sure of the tolerances. That way you should know that the baffles will slide into the tube. Concentricity and "runout" are the bigger concerns. SDTA is great about having straight tubes. And only drilling the bore might be difficult with the baffles. It would be better if the premarked the center w a divot. They probably have a "center hole jig" for sale to mark the center and keep your drill bit in proper place. That's the hardest part of "premade" baffles.

I wish that they came predrilled w only a .0015" thick bore hymen. Then we could be assured of a correctly placed area to punch through. The bit would "self guide" into the divot.
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:44 pm

Thanks whiterussian,

I will refer to it as a build from now on.


Regarding the SDTA tube, I was just reading where some people don't like them and talk about another tube maker, DM. Don't know who DM is, something about their threads not being as deep so the tube is stronger? Any thoughts on that.

From what I have been told other places, an end mill bit is the best choice for boring the hole. I will be using a basic drill press, can't budget a lathe right now. I pilot divot would be nice if I go with a series of gradually increasing sized drill bits to cut the hole.

By the way, what size of hole are you guys recommending for a .30?


Thanks,

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by andromax » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:12 pm

DM is Diversified Machine. Awesome stuff. Can't keep it in stock unfortunately. Tubes are machined inside and out for tighter tolerances. SDTA are hacked off and threaded with 20tpi threads to match Maglite threads. The IDs will vary. Not a terrible product but the bar has been set pretty high since other solvent trap companies have entered.

RoninPro is making 7075 kits upto 2", if that strikes your fancy.

Get yourself a lathe and do it yourself :D
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:04 pm

Andromax, can aluminum handle rifle rounds?

The lathe is just not in the budget, stretched it to the max just to apply for stamps. Not eating ramen noodles for dinner yet..................but will when I can afford them.

Thanks for the DM explanation. I will check them out.

Anybody got any experience with Texas Arms out of Porter Heights, TX?

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by andromax » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:51 pm

MikeG wrote:Andromax, can aluminum handle rifle rounds?
Never tried it. I'd imagine it would work more than once, atleast. If you plan on using it on an AR15 forget about it.
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:01 pm

MikeG wrote:Andromax, can aluminum handle rifle rounds?
Anybody got any experience with Texas Arms out of Porter Heights, TX?
Al isn't recommended for rifle cartridges. You 'could' if you lined the blast chamber with Stainless Steel. But the heat doesn't treat Al well. And no matter how thick you make the tube to increase Hoop Strength, when heat weakens it the pressure begin plastic deformation. Over time, this will give you many problems.

If you do 1 can and then save up for the rest, use Grade 5 Titanium for the tube. Then a SS spacer to line the blast chamber. This isn't the perfect solution. But it will work like a tank for the toughest applications even sustained rapid fire of high power rds.

But that's just an option, not a suggestion. You should determine for yourself what layout/design you like best. This is just 1 option that I like.
---
I have no experience with TX Arms.
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:51 pm

That is what I figured whiterussian.

Thinking for the .308, need to go steel or titanium.

So that first chamber needs to lined, that should not be a problem since I need that liner to hold the cups farther down the tube in place, correct?

Got my form 1s done last night, chunk of change out the door :(

Listed two at 12 inches, and one at 8 inches. Two .30 calibers and one .223. From reading, I can send in the actual dimensions once the can is built.

What do you guys think of this guys K baffles???
https://www.facebook.com/TEXAS-ARMS-CO-881966425282918/

I don't do facebook, so I am limited to seeing a few pictures. One reason I ask about them is that they are close to me and I could go by there to purchase the raw materials instead of ordering them.

Also how do I change the colors on this forum so I can read it easier? This grey and black blend together for half color blind eyes.



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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:06 pm

MikeG wrote:So that first chamber needs to lined, that should not be a problem since I need that liner to hold the cups farther down the tube in place, correct?

From reading, I can send in the actual dimensions once the can is built.

Also how do I can the colors on this forum so I can read it easier? This grey and black blend together for half color blind eyes.
A: You don't "need" to line the Blast chamber. Most people don't. But I like sleeving it with a "denser" material to "deepen" the tone and add an extra layer of heat protection for the outer tube.

But just thickening that section is what many people do. There are even patents on ways of doing this. And many people use no spacer or thickening of that section's tubing.
---
B: You "can" request an adjustment of final documented length. But you needn't. Just make sure not to be longer than the figure that you listed as your OAL. There is even plenty of precedence for non-enforcement if the OAL is less than 2" more than the # on the form. But I would always want to be just short of the OAL listed.
---
C: You can use "Grease Monkey" tool if you use Firefox. But I haven't managed to get the workaround to work. So best of luck to you.

These links will point you to our best help.
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:16 pm

MikeG wrote:What do you guys think of this guys K baffles???
https://www.facebook.com/TEXAS-ARMS-CO-881966425282918/
Those are nice looking Ks. But Ks are usually used for lower pressure/volume cartridges like pistol and .22lr.

His "radial" design is also nice. I'd prefer that one for all but the last baffle just prior to the far endcap. Even then, the K might not be the best choice for .223 and .308. Based upon what those more knowledgable than me have posted.

Gunny50 is my go-to Professional for many design ?s. We have a similar view on Theory.

Bender and Capt Link are also great Machinists who often help people. They both have had oodles of experience and are USA-based firms.

Just keep reading as many Smithing Section threads as you can bear. You'll get all the Theory and Techniques that anyone has placed in the Public Domain.
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:52 am

Sent an email to the Texas guy asking about his products. Said about $600 would get me the parts I needed, and need to check back in a month or so. That sounded real high to me.

whiterussian, thanks for the advice on the K cups. Those look a lot like what I have in my TiRant, and thought it would be a good choice. Guess I thought the more complicated the better. Good to know that they would not be the best choice for a rifle.

So now I will go check out those folks you referenced and try to come up with a better choice for rifle baffles.

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:28 pm

Wow, lots to process.

Unfortunately I am overwhelmed with the complexity. Not going to be able to bring the sophisticated equipment or experience so many have into my build. Limited tools, limited budget, limited metal working experience.

My set up is an electromagnetic drill press attached to a stand. I am trying to make one machine do another machines job. Fortunately it is heavy duty and I have a regular chuck on it. I may try and sell it to get a replacement machine, however that may be a stretch. (Does any one need a drill press you can use on the bottom of a steel bridge, upside down?? Maybe use it on a safe door??? LOL) If I have to use it, I think it is solid enough that pressing against the sides of a bit will not cause any damage, like a inexpensive drill press might be subject to.

I do have a vice that fits on the table, so that is a plus I think.

Really hoping for a buy parts, drill, assemble type of set up once the stamp is approved.

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:16 pm

MikeG wrote:Wow, lots to process.
Unfortunately I am overwhelmed with the complexity.
Really hoping for a buy parts, drill, assemble type of set up once the stamp is approved.
You should be fine. There are plenty of excellent by-the-numbers builds on Youtube. Made from Solvent Trap parts which are modified once the Stamp is in hand. :wink:

The main thing is buy a good tube and endcaps that will last 100+yrs. The Internals can always be remade by SOT 7/02. Make sure that they and YOU have quality materials and workmanship to start with.

I'd take the Radial Cones to a machine shop if you aren't sure of your equipment's ability. YOu can always try 1 and see how it works. If you're off-center, have the rest Professionally done.

But many Hobbyists have made home builds. You should be fine. And can always get Professional help later, if you aren't satisfied with your 1st attempt. 8) :)
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:33 pm

Good that helps.

What is the estimated cost for those parts?

I thought the reply I got from the guy near me was high.

Filed for a 12 inch suppressor. From what I read, I need to go with the 1.5 inch tube.

Got a few 300 Win Mags, can I shoot those with the can on safely?

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:53 pm

MikeG wrote:What is the estimated cost for those parts?

Got a few 300 Win Mags, can I shoot those with the can on safely?
All these ?s depend upon each other.

What materials are your parts? Gr5-Ti is FAR more $$$ than 304-SS.
The baffles will almost certainly be SS. But which Grade? 304, 316, Something else?
You just have to shop around for the best price and not be afraid to ask for Discounts or to Price Match their Competitors. For a Gr5 Ti tube, 316 endcaps, and SS Radials (about 8?) $600 seems about right. Go to SS tube and the price drops to maybe $400-450. Make only the 1st 2 baffles SS, and the rest Al: Price drops to maybe $350. Get it during a Promotional Sale, maybe $300.

But I'd get the Gr5 Ti tube and SS throughout. I'd even prefer a Custom Order Stellite or similar BlastBaffle. Erosion is MASSIVE on 300WM. SO you need the most resilient material that you can find. (Or be ready to replace if needed, but follow all the Laws. :wink: )
You might also want a $75-175 muzzle brake as a Sacrificial Blast Baffle. I would.

Just remember, it's $650-1100 for a Commercial Can. This depends mainly upon materials, but also some other factors. So for a "Cadillac" build, $450 + $75-150 SS brake seems a right price.

If you've filed for 3 F1s, you might buy all parts at the same time. But I don't know what kind of Discount that would get you. If less than 5, probably not much. Do you have any Buddies that might like to file also?

Word of Mouth Advertising is important and Valuable to a Firm. But they are already Established, so no 1 person will bring them much Traffic.

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:31 pm

Thanks again.

The $600 was I think 'K' baffles which we talked about not being a good choice for a rifle. Hopefully a cup style baffle will be cheaper.

The 300 Win Mag is not what this is for, but would hate to look back and think I could have gone all the way for a few dollars more and did not.

So, If I go with a titanium tube about 12 inches long, 1.5 inch diameter with stainless steel cup type baffles. Then fill it with half dozen cups and a spacer nearest the barrel for strength and larger 1st chamber. I should be good to get a .308 hearing safe, a 5.56mm hearing safe and a subsonic 300 BLK to pellet gun sound levels?

Price for that approx $600.

If I go stainless steel tube and everything else the same I could save $100-150, and still have the performance I want, but heavier, correct?

Am I off base?

Hoping I am getting pretty close to a workable plan, LOL.

Oh, and no buddies to partner with. They look at me like I lost my f'n mind when I talk about this stuff. They all want to see it and shoot it, but not get anywhere near making one.



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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:46 pm

Ok, one more real stupid question.

Not sure if any legal issues on this.

The future suppressor will have two holes in it, front and back, and a baffle stack that must be orientated in a particular way to work well.

Has anyone, or can I, use two sets of threads of different sizes for the endcaps?

Thinking one for threading on the 300 BLK and 5.56mm barrels 1/2x28, the other end with threads for the .308, 5/8x24.

Put a washer or something behind the front end cap to reduce the size of the hole to something safe, efficient and help protect the now exposed threads from the blast.

That way if I want to go to the .308, I take the can apart, flip the baffle stack, put the washer behind the smaller threaded hole which is now in the front, screw it on to a different rifle and start shooting. Repeat the process to go back to 5.56mm.


Is this a workable concept or laughable???



.

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by fastfire » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:23 pm


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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:15 pm

Ok, that would work a lot better.

I could probably have a machine shop make up a few for less than purchasing one of those.

Like that idea.

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:01 am

MikeG wrote:So, If I go with a titanium tube about 12 inches long, 1.5 inch diameter with stainless steel cup type baffles. Then fill it with half dozen cups and a spacer nearest the barrel for strength and larger 1st chamber. I should be good to get a .308 hearing safe, a 5.56mm hearing safe and a subsonic 300 BLK to pellet gun sound levels?

If I go stainless steel tube and everything else the same I could save $100-150, and still have the performance I want, but heavier, correct?

Oh, and no buddies to partner with. They look at me like I lost my f'n mind when I talk about this stuff. They all want to see it and shoot it, but not get anywhere near making one.
The tube is the serialized part of the can. A 7/02 can change every other part, but not that one. So that should be your prized piece that all the rest fits in. Like a house, you can change all the furniture, carpet, electrical, plumbing. But the outside must remain the same.

Same w cans. As tech evolves, you can upgrade your Internals. But not the Tube. That's why I would recommend spending extra on that. You're right, you could save $150 on a heavier SS tube. And probably only be heavier. But wouldn't it suck to start hating lugging around a heavy can and always wondering, "I could have been happier for an extra $150? It would be a greater joy to carry it w less weight AND softer sound."
---
Not pellet gun quiet. More like a car door slamming shut. That's the best analogy that I can make.

And Supers are NEVER as quiet as subs. Though at the Shooter's ear, you will be very pleased. It's almost like wearing 32dB earplugs except you have hear everyone/thing normally until the shot. Then that is very manageable too. Most of the Sound Waves will travel away from your ears.
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/general.html and http://guns.connect.fi/rs/measure.html are great resources for understanding the basic physics involved and what you can reasonably expect. Read through the links on the Trial Summary, bullet flight noise, directional diagram, etc. You will get a very thorough understanding of how a suppressor works and the ways sound works.
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by MikeG » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:57 pm

Thanks whiterussian. I want to thank you for your help.

Been in this game for a bit, got my first Gemtech in the early 1990's.

The internals, the science behind the performance, and how to actually make one are a bit of a mystery.

I am strongly leaning toward Titanium, even if it is just the tube.

Going to take a break from it for a while. Maybe put together some parts in a month or so.

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by gojckent4 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:58 am

MikeG wrote:Thanks again.

The $600 was I think 'K' baffles which we talked about not being a good choice for a rifle. Hopefully a cup style baffle will be cheaper.
Just a thought, surely others here can say if this might be a good option for you... Titanium valve spring retainers aren't USUALLY as cheap ($20-40 each) as home-made freeze plug baffles or even cups. Also, Ti retainers need spacers for separation - some say they're hard to grind and drill? I've heard guys use them only as VSRs, but at just $7 each, I plan on building out my whole baffle stack with Ti retainers. I found an seller (a1performancewarehouse) last week that sells several sizes, and today they just listed one that might suit you. Their staff is super easy to work with if you need help with special requests. Of course, Del West will recut new ones for $24 each...

The Ti retainers below have an OD of 1.350 (good for Apogee 1.50" Ti tubes I think), and "steps" at 1.075" and .780, their ID is a drillable .300". If you're looking at the .308, I've seen both .368 and .388 used as a .308 can's bore so you'll have to drill or pick another size. I'm new at silencers, still waiting on my first Form 1, so others are going to have to chime in if they think this is worth chasing. Haven't figured out JPG posting on this board yet, but take a look at the 3rd and 4th pic on the ebay ad below. Good luck, I'll be watching your build - please post pics. When I get started on mine, I'll do the same. We all should.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191921577017?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

Image

Thanks whiterussion for the clue on how img uploads work here!
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:27 pm

gojckent4 wrote:
MikeG wrote: good choice for a rifle.
Titanium valve spring retainers... Also, Ti retainers need spacers for separation.
Ti baffles aren't as good a choice for rifles. They suffer too much heat fatigue. But he could use them as the last 4, if he wanted. The heat and pressure are lower there, so not such a pain.

The need for spacers would mean more weight. So that would offset his savings in Ti tube. But, he could drill holes in the spacers or use a novel device to handle this? Using smaller OD perforated tubing that headspaces on the step instead of the VSRs' OD? I've seen some like this.
But I'm only speaking from Observation and not Personal Usage. So Gunny or Capt Link are better for these ?s.
gojckent4 wrote:Haven't figured out JPG posting on this board yet, but take a look at the 3rd and 4th pic on the ebay ad below.
Post the link and then add bracketed Img, /Img around it. Just highlight the link, then press the "IMG" button above during Post creation.

"Quote" a Post w an img in it and you'll see the Format. Like this 1 of Hillary.
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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by chrismunn » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:22 pm

Sorry guys, not trying to derail the discussion here but I have an off-topic questions about materials.i see you guys keep refering to manufacturers of parts and listing approximate prices for individual parts. These parts are being sold at these prices because 90% of the machine work has already been done, right?

I'm just curious because I'm wanting to do a build of my own but plan on doing 100% of the machining myself, using raw stock. Can I expect to pay similar prices???

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Re: New Guy asking for Help with 1st homemade supressor.

Post by gojckent4 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:45 pm

chrismunn wrote:These parts are being sold at these prices because 90% of the machine work has already been done, right?

I'm just curious because I'm wanting to do a build of my own but plan on doing 100% of the machining myself, using raw stock. Can I expect to pay similar prices???
The stepped Ti retainers I listed are all available new, directly from Del West for $24 each, as of this week, for as many as you can use. The ones I found on ebay are $7, some new, some used. Since you're planning on machining 100% yourself, TitaniumJoe.com supplies most appropriate sizes of Ti tubing and bar stock you might want. You can pick up many Ti, SS, and AL bar and tube stock on ebay for decent prices. Also, there's an enormous amount of Ti plate stock on ebay, if you're interested in custom stuff like this Gemini - http://www.google.com/patents/US20140374189

I'd be doing the same as you except I don't own a lathe, and after my 3rd AR build my wife's sense of humor is pretty much non-existent...

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