form 1 and the new trust rules

[magilla]

I have a trust but does it even matter anymore with the new rules? what is the direction to go now. I am a total newby and really could use some help getting the proper paperwork going now that the rules have changed. Suggestions, thoughts?

[BlogSarge]

Each trustee will have to get printed and have a picture. But, the benefits of being able to have more than just yourself possess the item still exist. And if you pass away the other trustees can retain the item and possess it legally without going through ATF hoops.

I think it is still worth it.

And, I think you can buy the item and then add trustees later so they don't have to get printed.

[magilla]

Each trustee will have to get printed and have a picture. But, the benefits of being able to have more than just yourself possess the item still exist. And if you pass away the other trustees can retain the item and possess it legally without going through ATF hoops.

I think it is still worth it.

And, I think you can buy the item and then add trustees later so they don't have to get printed.

I'd like to see that written somewhere as that would add a layer of benefit to trusts. I cant imagine they missed that in their overhaul. Can you still efile the forms with the fingerprints and pictures or must they be mailed ?

[Bendersquint]

Need to review it again but IIRC any changes to the trust requires notification to the ATF.

If you didn't then everyone wold remove everyone from the trust, get a new item and then add everyone back on.

ATF is not THAT dumb to overlook the devious ways that guys try to get around the system.

[T-Rex]

I'd like to see that written somewhere as that would add a layer of benefit to trusts. I cant imagine they missed that in their overhaul. Can you still efile the forms with the fingerprints and pictures or must they be mailed ?

There is no more e-file system for Form 1's
Everything must be paperfiled

ETA:
Direct from 41F Final Rule
"With respect to issues raised by the prospect of a post-transfer change in responsible parties, this rule does not require that ATF be notified of such changes. In the NPRM, the Department indicated that it was considering a requirement that new responsible persons submit Form 5320.23 within 30 days of a change in responsible persons at a trust or legal entity. After receiving several public comments on this issue, the Department is not requiring in this final rule that new responsible persons submit a Form 5320.23 within 30 days of any change in responsible persons."

[Bendersquint]

I'd like to see that written somewhere as that would add a layer of benefit to trusts. I cant imagine they missed that in their overhaul. Can you still efile the forms with the fingerprints and pictures or must they be mailed ?

There is no more e-file system for Form 1's
Everything must be paperfiled

ETA:
Direct from 41F Final Rule
"With respect to issues raised by the prospect of a post-transfer change in responsible parties, this rule does not require that ATF be notified of such changes. In the NPRM, the Department indicated that it was considering a requirement that new responsible persons submit Form 5320.23 within 30 days of a change in responsible persons at a trust or legal entity. After receiving several public comments on this issue, the Department is not requiring in this final rule that new responsible persons submit a Form 5320.23 within 30 days of any change in responsible persons."

Well thats great news, now I can make my one person trust, then after approval add the neighborhood, family and local shooting club on it!

If you think about that it kinda defeats the whole reason for 41P/F.

[policetruck]

Well thats great news, now I can make my one person trust, then after approval add the neighborhood, family and local shooting club on it!

If you think about that it kinda defeats the whole reason for 41P/F.

It's the government, you have to take reason out of the equation.

[Bendersquint]

Well thats great news, now I can make my one person trust, then after approval add the neighborhood, family and local shooting club on it!

If you think about that it kinda defeats the whole reason for 41P/F.

It's the government, you have to take reason out of the equation.

I worked for the government for many many years, they do have reason....my guess is that it wouldn't fly without that wording, they wouldn't have knowingly passed that....they read the forums and know what guys will do to try and get around the rules/regs/laws.

[mr fixit]

If you think about that it kinda defeats the whole reason for 41P/F.

I truly wonder what was the real reason for 41P/F?

[policetruck]

I would think, that it was a way to place more restrictions without new legislation. I'm sure from the POTUS. Like Bender said, they read the forums (that doesn't surprise me one bit) and I'm sure they saw how the general consensus was to go with a trust because it was less work/less red tape and figured that was an easy "fix." I would be highly skeptical if it actually helped reduce any amount of NFA criminal activity.

[Bendersquint]

I would think, that it was a way to place more restrictions without new legislation. I'm sure from the POTUS. Like Bender said, they read the forums (that doesn't surprise me one bit) and I'm sure they saw how the general consensus was to go with a trust because it was less work/less red tape and figured that was an easy "fix." I would be highly skeptical if it actually helped reduce any amount of NFA criminal activity.

If you can do a Form1/4 with minimal bodies on your trust and add anyone you want after that point without notifying the ATF or anything then it does NOTHING to limit criminal activity.

Take the criminals off, submit, get approved, add back on. Viola, just bypassed the ENTIRE process implemented.

That said i am rereading it as I recall something in there that said ANY changes to the bodies in the trust must notify the ATF. Will post the quote if I can find it.

I know everyone thinks the ATF is stupid, but they aren't THAT stupid.

[mr fixit]

I remember talking about this. As I remember, the part about notifying ATF of any changes was only in regard to filling within the same 2-year time frame. Basically as I understand it, there was a provision put in so that once you had everyone on the trust fingerprinted and filled out the individual information, IF the trust filled again within the 2 year window you did not have to resubmit all those prints if the trust was the same. However, in regard only to the trust refiling within the 2 year window you must notify ATF if the trust is changed and of course submit all the fingerprints etc.

I don't believe there is any law or regulation that says just because I change my trust I have to tell ATF after the fact.

[crazyelece]

The only time you have to notify them is if there is a change while a form is in process.

[Bendersquint]

The only time you have to notify them is if there is a change while a form is in process.

Can you please cite that?

[Bendersquint]

OK found it.

"Q:
Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
A:
Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance."


That is completely retarded of the ATF. Remove everyone off the trust, submit application, get approved and sign for the item......then add your neighborhood back onto the trust.

What did 41F do besides make the CLEO notification instead of signoff?

[T-Rex]

What did 41F do besides make the CLEO notification instead of signoff?

Most likely increased the ATFs budget for the dept processing forms. 41F clearly states the projected workload increase, which relates to work hours and payroll needs.