Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by cdrissel » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:13 pm

Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this subject.

After posting a few pics of my latest "kit" build I felt there was some push back on Form1 kit builds.

As a professional machinist who works in a small job shop full time ID like to hear what most members on this forum think.

Personally I prefer to spend my free time away from the shop. But do see the value in "diy" form1 builds. But my goals are to have a tool that is efficient and economical - by that I mean minimal POI, quiet, durable and cheap (in that order)
Last edited by cdrissel on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "dyi"

Post by a_canadian » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:31 pm

Well I'm just a hobbyist builder, so the point for me is in executing something a bit better in quality and suppression efficiency with each new project. Not too concerned about the working time, as I do such machining after my work day's done and when there aren't any pressing chores around the house. My little projects have become quite decent with practice, so going to some sort of pre-made set of parts and doing minor machining to complete them doesn't hold any interest for me and would probably represent a significant backwards step in efficiency of noise reduction. I see such kits as being useful for those without a lathe or the skills to use one well, or of course those like yourself who just don't want to spend the time in the shop required to make more elaborate systems.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "dyi"

Post by cdrissel » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:40 pm

a_canadian wrote:Well I'm just a hobbyist builder, so the point for me is in executing something a bit better in quality and suppression efficiency with each new project. Not too concerned about the working time, as I do such machining after my work day's done and when there aren't any pressing chores around the house. My little projects have become quite decent with practice, so going to some sort of pre-made set of parts and doing minor machining to complete them doesn't hold any interest for me and would probably represent a significant backwards step in efficiency of noise reduction. I see such kits as being useful for those without a lathe or the skills to use one well, or of course those like yourself who just don't want to spend the time in the shop required to make more elaborate systems.

Great points. I'd love to spend more time working on projects but for me I have more pressing issues to deal with "honey do lists and home improvement projects". I'd say more power to you !

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "dyi"

Post by battlecreek » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:52 pm

cdrissel wrote:Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this subject.

After posting a few pics of my latest "kit" build I felt there was some push back on Form1 kit builds.

As a professional machinist who works in a small job shop full time ID like to hear what most members on this forum think.

Personally I prefer to spend my free time away from the shop. But do see the value in "diy" form1 builds. But my goals are to have a tool that is efficient and economical - by that I mean minimal POI, quiet, durable and cheap (in that order)
I've saved a ton of money using the solvent trap kits, building my own, created a conversation piece and made great quality cans to boot. Heck, I saved $500 on my 458 socom can alone, its hearing safe, and weighs 23 oz. Thats actually a smidge lighter than the bowers and an inch shorter...oh! and there's no frickin aluminum either. Some form 1 cans are better than factory IMHO!

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "dyi"

Post by yondering » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:20 pm

cdrissel wrote:Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on this subject.

After posting a few pics of my latest "kit" build I felt there was some push back on Form1 kit builds.

As a professional machinist who works in a small job shop full time ID like to hear what most members on this forum think.

Personally I prefer to spend my free time away from the shop. But do see the value in "diy" form1 builds. But my goals are to have a tool that is efficient and economical - by that I mean minimal POI, quiet, durable and cheap (in that order)
You didn't get pushback from me on form 1 builds in general, just questioning why you'd spend as much as a good commercial can to build something heavier, larger, and most likely louder? I get that time is important, I get paid for my machining time too, so if it's about time, why not just buy what you want? Consider that something like a Gemtech Outback IID is less than 3 ounces, right about the same price or less, and very quiet. That's just one of several good options.

I've done several F1 builds myself, I'm not against them in any way, just wondering if you considered the cost/performance vs commercial alternatives beforehand, or if it was just one of those projects that added up to more than you intended. We've all been there, it happens. I like F1 builds because I can build what I want, instead of just what's available commercially. Was that your reasoning too?

FWIW I have handled and fired some of the DM and other "solvent trap" builds; IMO they make more sense as a cheaper alternative to commercial centerfire cans, but they were certainly heavier, and I didn't think they were as quiet.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "dyi"

Post by Bah21963 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:32 pm

a_canadian wrote:Well I'm just a hobbyist builder, so the point for me is in executing something a bit better in quality and suppression efficiency with each new project. Not too concerned about the working time, as I do such machining after my work day's done and when there aren't any pressing chores around the house. My little projects have become quite decent with practice, so going to some sort of pre-made set of parts and doing minor machining to complete them doesn't hold any interest for me and would probably represent a significant backwards step in efficiency of noise reduction. I see such kits as being useful for those without a lathe or the skills to use one well, or of course those like yourself who just don't want to spend the time in the shop required to make more elaborate systems.
There is a lot more to than just minor machining to make a superior form 1 suppressor from "kits". Just selecting the components is only a starting point. There are many different suppliers providing various types of cones, radials, kcups, tubes, thread adapters, etc. Then the "minor machining" will make a huge difference in the level of suppression along with the various internal components.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "dyi"

Post by partsguy22 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:15 am

My first F1 was some were in the middle and SDTA Ti tube and end caps with DIY 17-4ph cones and Ti spacers

I think the kit stuff can be a very good starting place especially since so many manufacturers are making some damn nice parts it's almost like a Lego can but at considerable expense

The DIY stuff is all up to the imagination of the builder and has the potential to be much less expensive and just as nice or nicer....or not, but it requires time and or skills/equipment some people just don't have

Personally I think they all have there place but I prefer to go the DIY I think of it as a hobby plus I have the time and not the money :oops:

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "dyi"

Post by propeine » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:01 am

I wrote a big post but it got lost so the short version...

I take a lot of pride in saying I built the whole thing. I built the least cost effective 1911 possible I think from raw frame and slide and all file to fit parts. Hand checkered it, chambered and cerakoted it too. TERRIBLE idea but I learned alot

My 1x6 22lr can is quieter than an outback 2 as confirmed by a half dozen people.

I make good money but nobody is standing outside my door offering to pay me for the hours of 10pm -1am so labor is "free" unless I have more pressing issues.

Right now I'm building a DI 9mm AR. I have ~150 dollars into it. An MPX or MP5 would cost me 1200-1500. I made a gas block...ya a 20 dollar freaking gas block because I'm too impatient to wait for shipping.

The tubes are a great value for lots of hobby machinists that don't have a steady rest or large enough spindle bore. I couldn't see buying baffles if I had access to a lathe.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by JulietDeltaCustoms » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:15 am

And, thats where juliet delta customs comes in. For people without a lathe, that want stuff made their way (within reason). Weve been busy for 10-12 hours a day since the first week we opened the site. The demand for 'kits' is surprisingly huge.
www.julietdeltacustoms.com

Juliet Delta Customs - Custom built solvent traps, cups, direct thread mounts, and much more.

[email protected] or [email protected]

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by Capt. Link. » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:19 pm

After over 30 years of building suppressors from scratch I think these kits as a travesty to the hobby and profession.
I see very little "smithing" when you order parts build by another to make the claim you built it?
Its a bit different if you designed it then commissioned the build or added blood sweat and tears to the project.
My hat is off to all who build their own and distinguish themselves from kit assemblers.
-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by andromax » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:33 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:After over 30 years of building suppressors from scratch I think these kits as a travesty to the hobby and profession.
I see very little "smithing" when you order parts build by another to make the claim you built it?
Its a bit different if you designed it then commissioned the build or added blood sweat and tears to the project.
My hat is off to all who build their own and distinguish themselves from kit assemblers.
-CL
My hat is off to the veterans of the suppressor world like you Cpt Link, but with the growing popularity of suppressors in recent years - accessibilityto the hobby of form1 cans is anything but a travesty.
People with nice kit cans give credit where credit is due and don't claim to have machined it all themselves. I've been reading this board for years and I respect your work immensely, but I disagree with you about that point. Its great that people machine there own suppressors from scratch. It's also great that people build a really nice can from a kit nowadays. We all win right?
<a> <img></a>

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by Capt. Link. » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:40 pm

I used to build model airplanes cutting and forming each piece including the tissue paper panels and propeller.When it was done the plane would fly, would you put that in the same category as a preformed plastic kit that sits on a shelf?

I see it like bragging about your buddy scoring with that hot cheerleader,it was not you that made the cut.

I don't mean to sound harsh but I give more credit to DIY vs KIT as was the point of the post.

-CL
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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by KenHo » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:03 pm

I am a VERY much a newbie in the suppressor built. I'm in the middle of working on my very first form 1 build. While I 100% agree with Cap Link to give more credit to a DIY, there are times when a kit build would be ok... I think. Of course, NOT with claiming a "personal build" when all parts are ordered and all you have to do is drop the parts together, well, with drilling the center holes of course.

I got involved with this stuff more from the desire to learn than making a totally quiet suppressor, but I'm sure enjoying the learning experience. I've got a G0602 lathe so I'm working on making baffles and all.

Ken H>
Last edited by KenHo on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by fishman » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:12 am

I agree with capt. Assembling a silencer is kinda like building an AR. it's fun to mix and match parts to get the final product in the exact configuration you want. At the end of the day, I never designed or created a semi automatic weapon, Eugene stoner and dpms and magpul and et cetera did all that. Its still more fun and better than just buying one in a lot of ways.

Are silencer kits worth building, sure. Are they really accomplishing much over just buying one, not really. Designing a silencer and paying someone to machine it would be more of an accomplishment imo.
Last edited by fishman on Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
300 blackout form 1: http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=137293

5.56 form 1:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by mattman0o0o » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:27 am

I'm still too paranoid to buy the parts and assemble into a can... since my intent is to make a can not a solvent trap. I thought form 1 required you to build it, not assemble it. Maybe I'm wrong and just overly paranoid.
.22 form 1 - http://youtu.be/grDBBcMjacI
.22 form 1 build thread - http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79544

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by T-Rex » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:17 pm

mattman0o0o wrote:I'm still too paranoid to buy the parts and assemble into a can... since my intent is to make a can not a solvent trap. I thought form 1 required you to build it, not assemble it. Maybe I'm wrong and just overly paranoid.
It is perfectly legal to turn a solvent trap into a suppressor, provided you have an approved Form 1.

With an approved Form 1, you can make a suppressor from popsicle sticks, panty hose, and bubble gum, if you so choose.



Just to clarify where the line is drawn, given the below scenario, is it building or assembling?

Download plans off internet.
Purchase lumber from Home Depot.
Cut lumber according to plan.
Finish into a shed that I......
Completed Builds www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79895
Burst Calculator www.engineersedge.com/calculators/pipe_bust_calc.htm
Silencer Porn www.instagram.com/explore/tags/silencerporn/

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by mattman0o0o » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:15 pm

T-Rex wrote:
mattman0o0o wrote:I'm still too paranoid to buy the parts and assemble into a can... since my intent is to make a can not a solvent trap. I thought form 1 required you to build it, not assemble it. Maybe I'm wrong and just overly paranoid.
It is perfectly legal to turn a solvent trap into a suppressor, provided you have an approved Form 1.

With an approved Form 1, you can make a suppressor from popsicle sticks, panty hose, and bubble gum, if you so choose.



Just to clarify where the line is drawn, given the below scenario, is it building or assembling?

Download plans off internet.
Purchase lumber from Home Depot.
Cut lumber according to plan.
Finish into a shed that I......

I see what your saying, but the ATF doesn't regulate said shed more than likely :).

I just remember having read once that the intent to use the solvent traps as traps is fine, but when you put a bullet through one now its a silencer and you bought silencer parts illegally. Obviously ton's of people have bought and converted solvent traps with no issues it would seem. I just didn't know if the form 1 gives you the ability to convert made parts into a silencer legally. I'm not a lawyer, just paranoid. I'm not big enough for prison :)
.22 form 1 - http://youtu.be/grDBBcMjacI
.22 form 1 build thread - http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79544

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by cdrissel » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:00 pm

Building something and making something are two different things.

That's why I posted a thread about a silencer I "build" not a silencer I "made"

As far as legality - buying a part and converting it is no different than buying bar stock and making it into a silencer part. In both cases you are turning a piece of material into a usable part.

I feel that the atmosphere on this forum looks down on anyone who is not a machinist and does not own or use machine tools. The hobby builders are in a different class than the full blown machinists. Might want to give them a break and try to include them instead of chastising them because they did not "make" all the parts..

Just my opinion.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by T-Rex » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:38 pm

Exactly!
The Seller of the Solvent Trap's intent, and marketing, is as solvent trap parts.
You create your own intent, which happens to be backed by an approved Form 1.

Diy'rs, on all levels, are good thing. Interest, learning, creation... all good things.
Hell, I'm guilty of it. What with all the glock and AR lego kits I've built.
Completed Builds www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79895
Burst Calculator www.engineersedge.com/calculators/pipe_bust_calc.htm
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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by yondering » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:23 am

cdrissel wrote: I feel that the atmosphere on this forum looks down on anyone who is not a machinist and does not own or use machine tools. The hobby builders are in a different class than the full blown machinists. Might want to give them a break and try to include them instead of chastising them because they did not "make" all the parts..

Just my opinion.
Nobody's looking down on you for not being a machinist. It's the relatively poor design & performance vs cost of a can like you built that is seen in a negative light. Basically, the equivalent of building a 4,000 lb vehicle with 150 hp and calling it a "sports car", and paying as much to do it as a new Corvette. If it makes you happy, don't worry about what anybody else thinks, but don't expect everyone to jump up and say how awesome it is.

I figure assembling your own suppressor from solvent trap kits is no different than "building" an AR15 from commercial parts; nothing wrong with it and it might get you what you want, but at the same time it might turn out pretty inferior to a complete commercial product for the same money, depending on the knowledge/experience of the "builder" (assembler, really).

Personally, I don't intend any offense at all to you; I'm just not impressed with the end product, but maybe it's a great first try for you, I don't know. I just want to be clear that any comments I've made should be taken as constructive criticism, and not a personal attack.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by a_canadian » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:42 am

For a bit more context... have a look at what's generally considered 'state of the art' in the UK for commercial PCP airgun and rimfire suppressors. Weihrauch, Swift and Huggett pretty much rule the roost over there for air, from sub-12fpe to their FAC licensed PCPs shooting 40fpe or more - and these airguns are plenty loud unsuppressed, some being comparable to .22lr. For rimfire there's the SAK, very popular. Comments such as 'my .22lr is damned near silent with it on, you only hear the striker click' are common. But what's in them, and what are people actually hearing? The SAK monocore looks like a rank novice job to me:

Image

The typical air rifle suppressor has something like beefed up hair curlers and washers inside, bit of a chore boy wrapped around those vented spacers. Here's the Huggett:

https://youtu.be/-nUfXAx34go

The rather popular Swift rimfire suppressor is pretty much washers and spacers:

Image

Another Swift variant - same thing only with rod spacers for the washers:

Image
And the Weihrauch. The guy posting this image on a (South African?) forum says "Some say this is the best silencer money can buy."

Image

My point? Well, I suppose it's that context is important. In a market where a piece of tube with end caps and some hair curlers and washers with a bit of polyester scrubbing pad wrapped around counts as a proper silencer, pretty much anything but an empty tube is considered quiet. In the US market, where the $200 tax stamp is daunting for some along with the often very lengthy wait time for approval, a silencer is considered a much more significant investment, hence much more consideration is given to each and every decibel scrubbed off the shot. Durability becomes hugely important, relative to a country where if it wears out you just pop around to the local shop and buy another for the equivalent of $50 to $100. Semi-disposable versus lifetime. Not really a fair comparison.

And where to the centre drill and start shooting solvent trap cans come into this line of thinking? Simple enough really. These guys are competing in a difficult market, going up against commercial products designed to last a very long time and do a fairly impressive job of damping noise. Their 'cups' have to at least be in the ballpark when converted to baffles, or they won't really do well in such a market. So they tend to offer superior designs, such as 60 degree cones, even K baffles (un-drilled of course), or if it's a monocore it has a somewhat sophisticated pattern. If 'finished' with some skill and knowledge the resulting suppression level ought to be somewhere midway between the garbage they're using in the UK, New Zealand and South Africa and the polished efforts from folks like Silencerco or Liberty. The solvent trap/flashlight cans ought to last fairly well if used correctly, not pairing thin 6061 cones with a .308" or somesuch, but aren't likely to last a lifetime with heavy use. Certainly longer than hair curlers though, obviously.
Last edited by a_canadian on Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by KenHo » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:43 am

I do hope those hair curlers are for an air rifle? Should last pretty good in air only.

I sure hope these hearing protection acts pass in 2017!

Ken H>

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by cdrissel » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:21 am

yondering wrote:
cdrissel wrote: I feel that the atmosphere on this forum looks down on anyone who is not a machinist and does not own or use machine tools. The hobby builders are in a different class than the full blown machinists. Might want to give them a break and try to include them instead of chastising them because they did not "make" all the parts..

Just my opinion.
Nobody's looking down on you for not being a machinist. It's the relatively poor design & performance vs cost of a can like you built that is seen in a negative light. Basically, the equivalent of building a 4,000 lb vehicle with 150 hp and calling it a "sports car", and paying as much to do it as a new Corvette. If it makes you happy, don't worry about what anybody else thinks, but don't expect everyone to jump up and say how awesome it is.

I figure assembling your own suppressor from solvent trap kits is no different than "building" an AR15 from commercial parts; nothing wrong with it and it might get you what you want, but at the same time it might turn out pretty inferior to a complete commercial product for the same money, depending on the knowledge/experience of the "builder" (assembler, really).

Personally, I don't intend any offense at all to you; I'm just not impressed with the end product, but maybe it's a great first try for you, I don't know. I just want to be clear that any comments I've made should be taken as constructive criticism, and not a personal attack.
You might want to actually read my OPs.

My latest .22 kit that I assembled is not a poor design and it preforms just as well as most commercial .22 cans. Yes it costs more but it is built to last - all Ti and 17-4. Not too many commercial .22 cans are capable of shooting 5.56. I could have easily bought or made it out of aluminum for a fraction of the cost, but I wanted a toy that was going to last.

Most of the criticism was about the inferiority of kit building vs diy custom builds. That's why I posted a second thread (this one) to discuss the differences between commercial - kit - diy.

All three have thier advantages and disadvantages. Too bad we can't get past them and see the true advantage - more people legally using suppressors.

I guess I made the mistake of posting a thread about it here.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by propeine » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:26 pm

cdrissel wrote:
yondering wrote:
cdrissel wrote: I feel that the atmosphere on this forum looks down on anyone who is not a machinist and does not own or use machine tools. The hobby builders are in a different class than the full blown machinists. Might want to give them a break and try to include them instead of chastising them because they did not "make" all the parts..

Just my opinion.
Nobody's looking down on you for not being a machinist. It's the relatively poor design & performance vs cost of a can like you built that is seen in a negative light. Basically, the equivalent of building a 4,000 lb vehicle with 150 hp and calling it a "sports car", and paying as much to do it as a new Corvette. If it makes you happy, don't worry about what anybody else thinks, but don't expect everyone to jump up and say how awesome it is.

I figure assembling your own suppressor from solvent trap kits is no different than "building" an AR15 from commercial parts; nothing wrong with it and it might get you what you want, but at the same time it might turn out pretty inferior to a complete commercial product for the same money, depending on the knowledge/experience of the "builder" (assembler, really).

Personally, I don't intend any offense at all to you; I'm just not impressed with the end product, but maybe it's a great first try for you, I don't know. I just want to be clear that any comments I've made should be taken as constructive criticism, and not a personal attack.
You might want to actually read my OPs.

My latest .22 kit that I assembled is not a poor design and it preforms just as well as most commercial .22 cans. Yes it costs more but it is built to last - all Ti and 17-4. Not too many commercial .22 cans are capable of shooting 5.56. I could have easily bought or made it out of aluminum for a fraction of the cost, but I wanted a toy that was going to last.

Most of the criticism was about the inferiority of kit building vs diy custom builds. That's why I posted a second thread (this one) to discuss the differences between commercial - kit - diy.

All three have thier advantages and disadvantages. Too bad we can't get past them and see the true advantage - more people legally using suppressors.

I guess I made the mistake of posting a thread about it here.
Not a mistake at all posting it and I think you have valid reasons for building your can the way you did! At the end of the day if you're pleased with it, to hell with all the rest of us!

You're also in a different boat than many guys who come here and don't know their ass from a hole in the ground but want to put together a cheap can that is the most effective ever and rated for 300 win mag while weighing 5oz. Experience matters.

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Re: Commercial vs "kit" vs "diy"

Post by Capt. Link. » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:01 pm

A question was poised and I responded in my normal fashion.I don't filter my thoughts or speech never have never will. A few noticed that my post came after a advertisement.Adding content to a knowledge based site may net better results than posting in the amateur side of this forum.

I want to see successful builds that's the only reason I ever joined this site.

I encourage everyone to learn about what you wish to build.Half the enjoyment is the journey to enlightenment.

This page was founded long before any kits made it to market and knowing machine tools was a standard to admittance.My desire to foster continuance of those skills is important to me and our freedoms.

I will still try to dispel misinformation and will assist anyone who asks for help no matter what path you choose.

-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

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