2 Stage Suppressor Legality Questions For The Pro's.

[fullautotogo]

First off, Hello, Long time lurker, First time poster. I have gained a lot of knowledge from this site in the past without asking any dumb questions. But alas my searching on this subject has only left me with more questions, so here we go.

My latest project, I have in hand an approved form 1 for a 15" 20Ga. suppressor. I originally planned to make this an integral design telescoped back over the barrel about 8" and the after barrel portion being made up of K baffles. But what I would like to do now is make this a two piece design along the lines of an old Sionics Mac suppressor or the AWC M10A3. The design of the AWC fits what I have in mind better, with modern internals of course. See link below....

https://awcsilencers.com/files/2014/10/awc-tm-m10a3.pdf

Now while searching the legality of this, mainly which part would be serialized, I ran into this thread.....

viewtopic.php?t=99279

.....Which gave me pause. Bendersquint and doubloon(Not picking on you guys) seem to be saying that these designs would be a no-no? I know that the other thread is on another topic, but I am focusing on the two tube idea.

Basically my new plan is this, Rear cap will have lip for rear tube and be tig'ed to the barrel. Barrel will contain porting, removable partitions and spacers. Rear tube (2.250") will be just a plain tube, no threading, no way of holding itself to the gun without the center section being in place. Center section will be threaded to mate with an extended and threaded choke tube and will hold the rear tube in place. Center section will have a lip on backside for rear tube and be threaded on the front side for the front tube. Front tube(2") will be threaded on both ends and contain the K baffles. Front end cap will be threaded for front tube.
And now for the questions.
1. Is this two piece design OK?
2. If it is can I serialize the front half? Looks like AWC and Sionics serialize the rear tube?
3. Could the front half be removed, Front cap to center section, fitted with a thread adapter and used on another host(SBR 50AE AR upper for instance)? Looking at the thread referenced above, the answer seems to be no as I would have parts left over. But is this any different than swapping piston springs for spacers on a pistol can for use on a fixed barrel or carbine? Still have parts left over. The parts left over could not be used by themselves as a suppressor as the center section would be missing, And if you added the center section to the rear half, then the front half is a non functioning pile of parts.
4. My stamp is for a 15" suppressor, I know you can't make it longer but is there any specific law saying you can't make it shorter and still use it? As in removing the rear part and just using the front half?

Not trying to be argumentative with my first post and not picking on the members mentioned above by referencing the other thread, it just seems to be in contradiction to the AWC and Sionics design.
And I'm not a tax evader , I have several stamps and if the consensus is that this is two suppressors than I will just build it in my first design in a one piece tube.

Thank you in advance for your wisdom and sorry for being long winded.
Glenn

[fullautotogo]

Re-read the other thread, seems like Bendersquint explained it pretty well, Just can't get my head around how you can swap parts out of a pistol can or AWC got away with their design, when the front of their can is a can in itself.

[T-Rex]

As in removing the rear part and just using the front half?

You'd be violating the law because the portion you aren't currently using would constitute spare parts, which is a no-no.

Re-read the other thread, seems like Bendersquint explained it pretty well, Just can't get my head around how you can swap parts out of a pistol can or AWC got away with their design, when the front of their can is a can in itself.

You can not compare a licensed manufacturer with a Form 1 builder.
It's not apples to apples as the rules change once you get a license and pay all taxes and fees associated.

[doubloon]

Pick away, I have no real world experience making cans and only try my best to interpret the laws, regulations and rulings I run across. The probable reason you see me in posts with bender is because I'm poking the bear. Bender is very knowledgeable and a bit tight lipped so I challenge him at times just to get more detail out of him, rarely am I in full disagreement with him.

First, anything you can get a documented waiver, exception, deviation, whatever for from the ATF is OK. As t-rex mentions there is a world of difference between a 'builder" and a "manufacturer". A Form 1 does not a manufacturer make and the likelihood of the NFA approving exceptions on Form 1s is pretty low.

If I'm following, there will be a "cap" (personally I'd call it a "shoulder" permanently mounted to the barrel behind a portion of the barrel which is ported and both the "cap" and the ported potion of the barrel are non-removable.

If so, then so far this is not an NFA, just a fugly ported gun.

Then you have some "removable partitions and spacers" (baffles) that slide over the ported portion of the barrel?

If so, then (I believe) the barrel becomes an integral part of the suppressor at that point and the entire weapon is the NFA and the serial number (usually) goes on the barrel.

If the ported portion of the barrel is removable (this is where you should start googling "tolerance stacking") then that removable ported portion of the barrel is part of the suppressor and the TIG welded "cap" is still just a shoulder on a fugly gun.

In either case, the two (multi) piece design seems over-engineered to me but ... NOT A MACHINIST so my opinion in these matters usually just starts arguments.

On the legality however, please refer to the design of the Salvo-12 as the poster child for multi-section tubes. Again, this shows the difference between a builder and a manufacturer.

[fullautotogo]

As in removing the rear part and just using the front half?

You'd be violating the law because the portion you aren't currently using would constitute spare parts, which is a no-no.

Re-read the other thread, seems like Bendersquint explained it pretty well, Just can't get my head around how you can swap parts out of a pistol can or AWC got away with their design, when the front of their can is a can in itself.

You can not compare a licensed manufacturer with a Form 1 builder.
It's not apples to apples as the rules change once you get a license and pay all taxes and fees associated.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. If Joe Shmoe with his pistol can from Acme Machine swaps out his booster spring for a spacer so He can use it on His AR, Why is the spring He has left over not "Spare Parts"? When it was obviously intended and designed to be a suppressor part. He is neither "manufacturer" nor "builder" yet as I understand it, this is legal.

[doubloon]

Some suppressors attach to muzzle brakes as an adapter instead of boosters.

Boosters fall into the "adapter" gap ... if designed as such.

Some boosters are designed in such a way the ATF rules them a silencer part.

[fullautotogo]

Pick away, I have no real world experience making cans and only try my best to interpret the laws, regulations and rulings I run across. The probable reason you see me in posts with bender is because I'm poking the bear. Bender is very knowledgeable and a bit tight lipped so I challenge him at times just to get more detail out of him, rarely am I in full disagreement with him.

First, anything you can get a documented waiver, exception, deviation, whatever for from the ATF is OK. As t-rex mentions there is a world of difference between a 'builder" and a "manufacturer". A Form 1 does not a manufacturer make and the likelihood of the NFA approving exceptions on Form 1s is pretty low.

If I'm following, there will be a "cap" (personally I'd call it a "shoulder" permanently mounted to the barrel behind a portion of the barrel which is ported and both the "cap" and the ported potion of the barrel are non-removable.

If so, then so far this is not an NFA, just a fugly ported gun.

Then you have some "removable partitions and spacers" (baffles) that slide over the ported portion of the barrel?

If so, then (I believe) the barrel becomes an integral part of the suppressor at that point and the entire weapon is the NFA and the serial number (usually) goes on the barrel.

If the ported portion of the barrel is removable (this is where you should start googling "tolerance stacking") then that removable ported portion of the barrel is part of the suppressor and the TIG welded "cap" is still just a shoulder on a fugly gun.

In either case, the two (multi) piece design seems over-engineered to me but ... NOT A MACHINIST so my opinion in these matters usually just starts arguments.

On the legality however, please refer to the design of the Salvo-12 as the poster child for multi-section tubes. Again, this shows the difference between a builder and a manufacturer.

Thanks for the reply. The Salvo 12 is a good example. If what I said above about the pistol spring not being a spare part is true, then it would follow that shortening your Salvo 12 by a few sections would also be OK. It would seem that a spare part is a spare part. In the end, I fear that this will be an intellectual exercise and a non-starter as the ATF likes to have things their way and common sense be damned.

[fullautotogo]

Sorry doubloon, You replied while i was typing. Adapter Huh? Which is why multiple thread adapters are OK. Yeah that makes sense. Well, I'll just build it in one piece.

I do thank you for your replies.

[T-Rex]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. If Joe Shmoe with his pistol can from Acme Machine swaps out his booster spring for a spacer so He can use it on His AR, Why is the spring He has left over not "Spare Parts"? When it was obviously intended and designed to be a suppressor part. He is neither "manufacturer" nor "builder" yet as I understand it, this is legal.

Boosters are not silencer parts. The Gemtech LID and Liberty Booster can be bought "off-the-shelf". Their pistons, springs, and fixed spacers are also not silencer parts.

You could file (2) Form 1's. Same caliber on both, but one being longer than the other. You'd have a shorter "K" model and a full length. Design so it has the ability for different mounts. This way, you could thread them together, to work in conjunction, and create one longer unit. I've not seen this idea to be proven in violation.

[fullautotogo]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. If Joe Shmoe with his pistol can from Acme Machine swaps out his booster spring for a spacer so He can use it on His AR, Why is the spring He has left over not "Spare Parts"? When it was obviously intended and designed to be a suppressor part. He is neither "manufacturer" nor "builder" yet as I understand it, this is legal.

Boosters are not silencer parts. The Gemtech LID and Liberty Booster can be bought "off-the-shelf". Their pistons, springs, and fixed spacers are also not silencer parts.

You could file (2) Form 1's. Same caliber on both, but one being longer than the other. You'd have a shorter "K" model and a full length. Design so it has the ability for different mounts. This way, you could thread them together, to work in conjunction, and create one longer unit. I've not seen this idea to be proven in violation.

Now that is an interesting idea. Something to think about in the future. I have to honest, My main motivation for this line of thinking was discovering that after sending in the form 1 for this suppressor, The shotgun would be to long for the safe I keep my NFA goodies in. OOPS, Major design flaw. Which led me to the two piece design and after looking at the AWC design and how it is threaded on the inside of the rear center piece and the fact the 20GA bore of .610+or- could be just about right for a .50AE and it would be a simple adapter and, and, and..... Well you get the idea.

No biggie, I will build it as I originally designed it. I'll just have to remove the suppressor or barrel to stow it. Just have to fight the O.C.D.

[crazyelece]

Silencer is defined as the silencer itself, and any combination of part used to create a silencer.

ATF holds that that means any part of a silencer is a silencer.

ATF also holds that if you build a silencer and have spare parts, that equates to having another silencer.

Manufacturers have the ability (through their license) to submit samples to ATF Tech for formal opinion.

Part of the process to determine if said "sample" is a particular item (ie. silencer) is to submit a prototype to tech branch.

Makers do not have this ability as making a prototype that tech branch considers a silencer would be equal to making an unregistered silencer.

So to be totally in the clear, your silencer that you make on a form 1 (all the parts that you make) should be considered "silencer parts" and therefore not be left over when the silencer is assembled.

The use of commercially available adapters is ok, as they aren't silencer parts since they are not being siezed by ATF.

If you modify a commercial part, it could then be viewed as a silencer part.

Now if you apply for and get an approved form 1, and then make a silencer that mimics a salvo in every possible way, I doubt ATF would persue charges as they have somewhere deemed that the design is ok.

But they could go after you with criminal charges, and you'd have to defend yourself in court.

Like most things in life, you have to ask yourself - "Is the juice worth the squeeze?"

[fishman]

Spare parts are not allowed. No where does it say that you have to have every part installed in the silencer when you use it. If half the silencer comes off and it's still usable it's not two silencers. If this were the case then it would be illegal to take your baffles out and fire the gun with just the tube attached. The baffles aren't spare parts, they just aren't currently assembled. Make sure that there is a possible configuration including every part assembled though, or else you clearly have spare parts.

[fullautotogo]

Spare parts are not allowed. No where does it say that you have to have every part installed in the silencer when you use it. If half the silencer comes off and it's still usable it's not two silencers. If this were the case then it would be illegal to take your baffles out and fire the gun with just the tube attached. The baffles aren't spare parts, they just aren't currently assembled. Make sure that there is a possible configuration including every part assembled though, or else you clearly have spare parts.

Excellent! See this is the way it works in my mind, They are not "spare parts", Just parts not being used. I can't see the ATF giving a hoot if I shoot my Siaga12 with the salvo 12, short a section or two as long as the "whole suppressor is "papered". As in, the parts are "extra parts", but they are parts of a "papered suppressor". So reading your post, I gather you think my two piece design is a legal build?

[fullautotogo]

Silencer is defined as the silencer itself, and any combination of part used to create a silencer.

ATF holds that that means any part of a silencer is a silencer.

ATF also holds that if you build a silencer and have spare parts, that equates to having another silencer.

Manufacturers have the ability (through their license) to submit samples to ATF Tech for formal opinion.

Part of the process to determine if said "sample" is a particular item (ie. silencer) is to submit a prototype to tech branch.

Makers do not have this ability as making a prototype that tech branch considers a silencer would be equal to making an unregistered silencer.

So to be totally in the clear, your silencer that you make on a form 1 (all the parts that you make) should be considered "silencer parts" and therefore not be left over when the silencer is assembled.

The use of commercially available adapters is ok, as they aren't silencer parts since they are not being siezed by ATF.

If you modify a commercial part, it could then be viewed as a silencer part.

Now if you apply for and get an approved form 1, and then make a silencer that mimics a salvo in every possible way, I doubt ATF would persue charges as they have somewhere deemed that the design is ok.

But they could go after you with criminal charges, and you'd have to defend yourself in court.

Like most things in life, you have to ask yourself - "Is the juice worth the squeeze?"

Maybe the safe bet is to write the ATF for Yah or Nah letter.

[Historian]

Spare parts are not allowed. No where does it say that you have to have every part installed in the silencer when you use it. If half the silencer comes off and it's still usable it's not two silencers. If this were the case then it would be illegal to take your baffles out and fire the gun with just the tube attached. The baffles aren't spare parts, they just aren't currently assembled. Make sure that there is a possible configuration including every part assembled though, or else you clearly have spare parts.

All this unnecessary confusion and legal miasma will be swept away
when the new fresh air of sanity starting on Friday 30 January 2017
starts and the HPA finally can be on its way to passing.

Appropriating lyrics from the 1960's blues song by Janis Joplin*
"Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ..."

Oh Lord won't you make the HPA pass,
So we can make suppressors like Mr. B. and his friends,
No longer to beg for ATF permission to make different ends


Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, etc. to all the brethren
and the Happiest, Healthiest, and Trumpian New Year.

* << https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ddnwyyGo4s >>

[fishman]

So reading your post, I gather you think my two piece design is a legal build?

I'm honestly having a hard time picturing how you want to build your silencer based on just your description. Can you draft a cad drawing, or even just a hand sketch, of what you're thinking? That'd probably help me and others better understand if your proposed build is legal.

[doubloon]

Spare parts are not allowed. No where does it say that you have to have every part installed in the silencer when you use it. If half the silencer comes off and it's still usable it's not two silencers. If this were the case then it would be illegal to take your baffles out and fire the gun with just the tube attached. The baffles aren't spare parts, they just aren't currently assembled. Make sure that there is a possible configuration including every part assembled though, or else you clearly have spare parts.

Excellent! See this is the way it works in my mind, They are not "spare parts", Just parts not being used. I can't see the ATF giving a hoot if I shoot my Siaga12 with the salvo 12, short a section or two as long as the "whole suppressor is "papered". As in, the parts are "extra parts", but they are parts of a "papered suppressor". So reading your post, I gather you think my two piece design is a legal build?

Topic won't die ...

For the Salvo, and the Osprey I think, the smaller, first part of the "tube" is serialized.

On the Salvo this allows the suppressor to be assembled in different lengths no longer than the original design length.

On the Osprey this allows a large portion of the outer tube to be replaced under repair without the Gem-Tax.

I do not know if SilencerCo had to apply for a variance with the ATF for these designs. Certainly they submitted samples before they went into production but, as I understand it, submitting samples and applying for a variance are two different processes.

I asked a nearly identical question in this forum (search for it if you want) a long time ago about the Thompson Machine Poseidon. I wanted to know if Brooks & Co. would/could design an extension for the Poseidon or a suppressor like the Poseidon with two tubes that would screw together. My thought was that way I could have the best of both ... a full size 9mm that could be converted to micro.

The general opinion from the forum was this is a no-no. Breaks all kinds of rules, the ATF will crucify the maker, yada yada, blah blah it would have to be two individually serialized suppressors and even then not legal ...

Then SilencerCo made the Salvo. Might be a manufacturer only super power, might not.

I believe the secret is that none of the un-serialized pieces can be functional as a suppressor on their own or assembled without the serialized part. So two tubes one serialized and one not with four end caps would definitely be a problem. Two tubes one serialized and one not where either tube could individually be assembled into a functional suppressor by itself would definitely be a problem. In either of these "no-no" cases you've managed to assemble a functional suppressor with no serial number ... unregistered or untaxed ... outside the purview of Big Brother.

The key, as demonstrated with the SilencerCo designs, it seems is that the portion of the tube/suppressor/parts which create the "extension" cannot be used as a functional suppressor without a serialized part. How you legally do that as a "maker" I have no idea, maybe not possible, maybe you can submit a CAD drawing of your suppressor design with the Form 1 and get it blessed.

But, submitting drawings with Form 1s or writing letters to the ATF are both double edged swords where both edges are usually used against the NFA community.

[T-Rex]

Like most things in life, you have to ask yourself - "Is the juice worth the squeeze?"

At the end of the day, this is what it comes down to.

Maybe the safe bet is to write the ATF for Yah or Nah letter.

Not sure how they'd respond, w/o drawings.But, you have me interested.

I would say it's a no-go. Purely on the fact that Mfr's have to submit designs and get the okay before doing the same. But, im all for more freedoms.

[crazyelece]

Like I said, it's an ATF opinion that every part of a silencer is a silencer in and of itself.

Therefore if you use a silencer and all the parts are not in it, you have spare parts that are not registered in ATF's opinion.

Shooting through a tube isn't using a silencer as the tube provides no muffling by itself.

The only way to challenge ATF opinion is through the court system.

2 ways to do that.

1. like TC you can apply for a stamp and then sue the ATF for charging a tax that shouldn't have been

2. wait for ATF to charge you and defend yourself of the criminal charges

Both will cost a lot of money.

Manufacturers have a way of getting ATF to declare a part as not being a silencer, form 1 makers do not unless they pay a manufacturer to do it for them.

[fullautotogo]

So reading your post, I gather you think my two piece design is a legal build?

I'm honestly having a hard time picturing how you want to build your silencer based on just your description. Can you draft a cad drawing, or even just a hand sketch, of what you're thinking? That'd probably help me and others better understand if your proposed build is legal.

There is a drawing in the AWC .pdf I linked in the first post. It is almost exactly what I have in mind, but with modern internals. The part labeled "Rear Mount" will actually be the ported end of my shotgun barrel with a lipped bushing tig'ed on to except the rear tube Thus part of the shotgun barrel, a muzzle brake if you will. If you look at the AWC design, you will see that the rear tube is just that, a tube. No machining or threading and no way of affixing itself to a firearm without the center section being present. Also looking at the AWC design it seems to me that if you were to remove the front of the suppressor, from the center section to the front cap, with a simple (legal) thread adapter, you would have a functional suppressor and some parts left over that in themselves couldn't function as a suppressor. Like removing a couple sections of you full length Salvo12 to use it as a shorty.

[fullautotogo]

Like I said, it's an ATF opinion that every part of a silencer is a silencer in and of itself.

Therefore if you use a silencer and all the parts are not in it, you have spare parts that are not registered in ATF's opinion.

Shooting through a tube isn't using a silencer as the tube provides no muffling by itself.

Won't be shooting through a tube, front section will be K baffles and I have a new type of barrel porting in mind for the rear as well as baffles.

As far as the ATF's opinion, you are probably correct. All parts of a suppressor are indeed suppressors by themselves, according to them. I have heard it and read it......But I have never seen anything in writing in the way of the law that says I can't take all the baffles out of one of my cans and fire the gun with an empty tube attached.

[doubloon]

Like I said, it's an ATF opinion that every part of a silencer is a silencer in and of itself.

Therefore if you use a silencer and all the parts are not in it, you have spare parts that are not registered in ATF's opinion.
....

https://silencerco.com/silencers/salvo-12/

... the shooter can remove sections to balance their sound suppression, weight, and length needs ...

https://www.store.silencerco.com/produc ... 12-rod-kit

By using our rod kits, the end user can effectively reduce weight and shorten the overall length of the Salvo 12 shotgun suppressor from the factory 12 inch configuration in 2 inch increments

Spare parts or no spare parts?

[partsguy22]

The problem is you are trying to apply logic to the ATFs decision making process

[fishman]

So reading your post, I gather you think my two piece design is a legal build?

I'm honestly having a hard time picturing how you want to build your silencer based on just your description. Can you draft a cad drawing, or even just a hand sketch, of what you're thinking? That'd probably help me and others better understand if your proposed build is legal.

There is a drawing in the AWC .pdf I linked in the first post. It is almost exactly what I have in mind, but with modern internals. The part labeled "Rear Mount" will actually be the ported end of my shotgun barrel with a lipped bushing tig'ed on to except the rear tube Thus part of the shotgun barrel, a muzzle brake if you will. If you look at the AWC design, you will see that the rear tube is just that, a tube. No machining or threading and no way of affixing itself to a firearm without the center section being present. Also looking at the AWC design it seems to me that if you were to remove the front of the suppressor, from the center section to the front cap, with a simple (legal) thread adapter, you would have a functional suppressor and some parts left over that in themselves couldn't function as a suppressor. Like removing a couple sections of you full length Salvo12 to use it as a shorty.

The design looks legal to me but if you want to remove any shred of doubt that it's legal, weld the rear tube to the center support, then weld the front tube to the center support. Remove everything if you want to shoot unsuppressed. No spare parts, only one tube, no doubt completely legal.

"Could the front half be removed, Front cap to center section, fitted with a thread adapter and used on another host(SBR 50AE AR upper for instance)? Looking at the thread referenced above, the answer seems to be no as I would have parts left over."

This might be technically legal. But all it takes is one atf guy disagreeing with you on the interpretation of the law to really F--k you over.

If you weld the rear tube to the barrel then I'd argue that it's nothing more than a barrel shroud that the silencer mates up to, not a silencer part.

[crazyelece]

Like I said, it's an ATF opinion that every part of a silencer is a silencer in and of itself.

Therefore if you use a silencer and all the parts are not in it, you have spare parts that are not registered in ATF's opinion.
....

https://silencerco.com/silencers/salvo-12/

... the shooter can remove sections to balance their sound suppression, weight, and length needs ...

https://www.store.silencerco.com/produc ... 12-rod-kit

By using our rod kits, the end user can effectively reduce weight and shorten the overall length of the Salvo 12 shotgun suppressor from the factory 12 inch configuration in 2 inch increments

Spare parts or no spare parts?

Again, that is from a manufacturer, who clearly submitted a design to ATF and had it approved. Form 1 maker doesn't get to play by those rules.

And to tell if it is a suppressor part, try to buy the piece from the manf, if they can't sell it - it would indeed be a silencer part.

Like I said, it's ATF's opinion. Courts will decide if it holds if they choose to pursue charges on form 1 makers.