CNC machine questions and 50 cal multi caliber silencer design suggestions

[Hannibalbarca]

I've been wanting a silencer for a while now and I won't be spending 600 to 1000 dollars for one so I'll have a CNC machine shop make it.

first is the material.
I've been thinking 4150 steel but is there any steel that is better than 4150 steel for this application?

Second is the design.
it will be .525 caliber so I can shoot anything I want in an ar15 and ar10 platform or something like 50 as.
it will be a monolithic bafffle design.
rhe first part will have the threads and this will about .5 inches but I'll extend it to .8 inches as the outside will contain threads for the baffle seal. The end of the suppressor will also contain threads on the out outside.
the end of the suppressor will also contain 4 .15 caliber holes as well advanced the main .525 caliber hole for the projectile.
the outside Of the baffle seal at the end will also contain threads on the front end so that I can mount caps with different sized caliber holes for different calibers.
the tube seal will of course have two sets of threads on the inside at both ends and will be made of the same material. It will be .28 inches thick.
the baffles will be Made out of cross sectioned circles(not sure how thick they will be) the very first two baffles will be definitely thicker than the rest by a significant percentage than the rest.
the baffles will be connected by 2 somewhat thick rods(they're machined out of a single metal tube so remember that) I would say 4 for extra rigidity but I'm not sure that can accomplished by a CNC machine.
I will make the baffles 3 inch diameter.
Also the primary expansion chamber would probably be 2 to 4 inches in length where there are no baffles.
i would also like the suppressor to be semi modular so I might stop the baffles somewhere in the middle and stop the baffles with a middle portion just being metal. It will be .6 or .8 inches long with threads on the outside for the tube seal and also at the center of the silencer where the projectile goes through there will be threads there as well so that the two pieces can be joined for larger calibers and the first piece can be used by itself for something like a pistol. Basically have the suppressor be made of two parts.
Example - 458 socom clearly needs less volume than 9mm.
my question is is it possible for a CNC machine to make this with no human intervention other than moving the pieces around?
how long would it take a CNC machine to make this?
Is there better steel I can use and where can I buy it?
what software could I use to design this? Could I use solid works?
am I wasting on using steel? I imagine it would be heavy. Would it better be to use titanium or aluminum? The most powerful cartridge I'd be firing, possibly, would be something like 500 S&W magnum or something like 500 phantom or 510 beck.
Also I would like to know if it is possible to make the tube seal from the same piece of metal that the baffles will be made of and if it's more or less economical to do this.
I would also like to know what the life expectancy of this suppressor will be when mainly shooting 5.56, 9mm, 45 acp, 7.5 Swiss, and 300 blk with mostly super sonic and some sub sonic.
Mainly I want to know the cost of this.
I live in Chattanooga so I have access to machine shops here in Chattanooga, Knoxville, Nashville and Atlanta.
I am looking at this being less expensive than buying one.
Also which would better to use for the design portion, autocad or solid works or perhaps something else.
Also do I need to worry about baffle strikes for things like hard cast .50 caliber 700 grain projectiles from a 50 Beowulf or something similar?
I'd like to have a 510 beck upper and that goes up to 750 grains so again should I worry about baffle strikes? And for 50 caliber is .015 inches enough for some wiggle room or should I increase the diameter of the projectile hole?

also i came up with the design very recently, last night, and I couldn't come up with any sort of locking system to keep the suppressor in place when firing. Can anybody help me out with designing a locking system so the silencer doesn't unscrew itself when firing?

[jreinke]

I think you need to do a bit more research. (That's a nice way of saying you're expectations are delusional.) There is NO one size fits all suppressor. You can come close with pistol can; 45 cans do a pretty good job with 9mm and 10mm. But when you start throwing rifle calibers into the mix, all bet are off. I'm not going to get into what baffle designs work better with which caliber because basically I'm a little hung over and there are other people on the chat room who could say it better than me. One final note though, in order for a machine shop to manufacture a suppressor for you they MUST be a licensed firearms manufacturer, i.e. Type 7 FFL with a Class 2 SOT and ITAR. Good luck finding that. I apologize, if I sound gruff, but the scotch I drank last night made me do it.

[T-Rex]

As jreinke stated, you need a bit more time in research before hitting the drafting board.
A 3" baffle? Most centerfire pistol cans have an overall OD of 1.375". Making it bigger is not the answer.

Multiple end caps are illegal and that horse has been so badly beaten.
Firing a 5.56mm projectile through a bore designed for .525cal, in a 3" ID suppressor w/ a 4" blast chamber, will yield all but impressive suppression. Unless, of course, it's several arm lengths

You could get away w/ 3 cans, for the typical collector.
(1) 22 rimfire. User servicable and FA rated
(1) 45cal, centerfire, pistol can designed for anything smaller and most subsonic, centerfire, rifle rounds.
(1) 30cal, centerfire, rifle can. Sealed and magnum rated.

Anything larger and you're usually best off with a dedicated design.

[vaeevictiss]

Not to mention cnc machining is not cheap for one off items like that. Unless you know the people and they cut you a deal. A good shop will charge about $80-100 an hour. I'm sure you can find some in the 30 an hour range but you get what you pay for.

This time also includes designing the cad file of you aren't providing one, tooling the machine up and building a fixture to hold whatever it is you are making. So there are several hours involved before even making the first cut. You will also be spending money on materials.

Basically what I'm saying is people don't hire the services of a CNC shop to save money, you do it to save time, and time is money.

I looked into it before and once it was explained to me about how much was involved i just decided to make my own baffles on a manual lathe.

In the end, ive done a few form 1 cans and I'm happy. I went from knowing nothing about a lathe to being very comfortable with one. Its relaxing to make the pieces and is rewarding to hear it after the time you put in. Except k baffles... I hate ks and am still trying to get them right. But your cone design is simple.

[Hannibalbarca]

As jreinke stated, you need a bit more time in research before hitting the drafting board.
A 3" baffle? Most centerfire pistol cans have an overall OD of 1.375". Making it bigger is not the answer.

Multiple end caps are illegal and that horse has been so badly beaten.
Firing a 5.56mm projectile through a bore designed for .525cal, in a 3" ID suppressor w/ a 4" blast chamber, will yield all but impressive suppression. Unless, of course, it's several arm lengths

You could get away w/ 3 cans, for the typical collector.
(1) 22 rimfire. User servicable and FA rated
(1) 45cal, centerfire, pistol can designed for anything smaller and most subsonic, centerfire, rifle rounds.
(1) 30cal, centerfire, rifle can. Sealed and magnum rated.

Anything larger and you're usually best off with a dedicated design.

I can certainly decrease the baffle size or i could have a square design or even a cylindrical design with the projectile hole near the top so i can still use my sights.
also why isnt it the answer? more volume is good, right?
also why will a 223 cal bullet not be suppressed as well if it were firing from a dedicated 223 baffle suppressor? also should the blast chamber be less? gasses expand in every direction regardless of anything, its not like all the gas goes back from the bullet in the bullets diameter.

ATF rulings or letters are not law. that doesnt even make any damn sense, its a cap. if i were to put an 1 inch of ducktape around the front end and fired a .223 caliber bullet is that an end cap now and a suppressor?
this is the atf trying to scare people into giving them more money and more control by making people buy separate cans for different calibers. and again, not law, congress makes laws not the atf.

[Hannibalbarca]

I think you need to do a bit more research. (That's a nice way of saying you're expectations are delusional.) There is NO one size fits all suppressor. You can come close with pistol can; 45 cans do a pretty good job with 9mm and 10mm. But when you start throwing rifle calibers into the mix, all bet are off. I'm not going to get into what baffle designs work better with which caliber because basically I'm a little hung over and there are other people on the chat room who could say it better than me. One final note though, in order for a machine shop to manufacture a suppressor for you they MUST be a licensed firearms manufacturer, i.e. Type 7 FFL with a Class 2 SOT and ITAR. Good luck finding that. I apologize, if I sound gruff, but the scotch I drank last night made me do it.

i will be designing the suppressor. i would simply be using a tool(cnc machine) of theirs to make the suppressor, this isnt illegal.
plenty of others have done this, used cnc machine shops with form 1s, and it was perfectly fine.

[Hannibalbarca]

Not to mention cnc machining is not cheap for one off items like that. Unless you know the people and they cut you a deal. A good shop will charge about $80-100 an hour. I'm sure you can find some in the 30 an hour range but you get what you pay for.

This time also includes designing the cad file of you aren't providing one, tooling the machine up and building a fixture to hold whatever it is you are making. So there are several hours involved before even making the first cut. You will also be spending money on materials.

Basically what I'm saying is people don't hire the services of a CNC shop to save money, you do it to save time, and time is money.

I looked into it before and once it was explained to me about how much was involved i just decided to make my own baffles on a manual lathe.

In the end, ive done a few form 1 cans and I'm happy. I went from knowing nothing about a lathe to being very comfortable with one. Its relaxing to make the pieces and is rewarding to hear it after the time you put in. Except k baffles... I hate ks and am still trying to get them right. But your cone design is simple.

Im perfectly fine with 80 to 100 an hour, it cant take more than 5 or 4 hours to make this suppressor.
Ill be providing the design, thats one of the points of having one cnc machined.
same with the material, which i could use help choosing. 4150 steel or something else? titanium for the seal tube or the same steel?
people keep saying that they need to set it up to machine. set up what exactly? im sure any vice clamp will do and im sure they have many to choose from.
i dont have access to a lathe and quite frankly i dont think id be able to do it.
i mean how would i accurately create the threads on the inside of the tube seal? how would i make the cross sectioned circle baffles?

[Hannibalbarca]

Also i just wanna say that im going to wait a little while to see if the Hearing protection act is passed within the next 8 to 6 months and if not then file my form 1.
if it passes all of this regulatory bullshit wont matter since suppressors will no longer be nfa items.

[a_canadian]

By cross section circle baffles, do you mean holes drilled across a steel rod? If that's the case then perhaps a good fit in a heavy vise might hold it still enough. But typically a jig is used, with bolted down bars or custom clamp fittings at several points along the rod. The forces involved in milling a big piece like that are rather large. A slip would destroy the cutter.

3" diameter for a can to sometimes mount on a pistol? Even in titanium, that can is likely to weigh a lot more than the pistol itself. Not really practical.

I'd suggest at least a little bit of over the barrel fitting for the .50", as a mere 1/2" of thread for mounting a can registered on only the barrel shoulder behind the threads is not likely a strong enough mount to survive long in that caliber. Likewise it seems unlikely aluminum or even titanium will last long there. Perhaps with an inconspicuous insert in the blast chamber? But still you're better off using steel for such large supersonic rounds.

The time involved in programming a CNC is more practical for a hobbyist with those skills for a single baffle system. Someone who doesn't mind spending many hours figuring everything out, unpaid. For a commercial shop they'd not likely go to all that trouble for less than a couple of dozen suppressors.

[Hannibalbarca]

By cross section circle baffles, do you mean holes drilled across a steel rod? If that's the case then perhaps a good fit in a heavy vise might hold it still enough. But typically a jig is used, with bolted down bars or custom clamp fittings at several points along the rod. The forces involved in milling a big piece like that are rather large. A slip would destroy the cutter.

3" diameter for a can to sometimes mount on a pistol? Even in titanium, that can is likely to weigh a lot more than the pistol itself. Not really practical.

I'd suggest at least a little bit of over the barrel fitting for the .50", as a mere 1/2" of thread for mounting a can registered on only the barrel shoulder behind the threads is not likely a strong enough mount to survive long in that caliber. Likewise it seems unlikely aluminum or even titanium will last long there. Perhaps with an inconspicuous insert in the blast chamber? But still you're better off using steel for such large supersonic rounds.

The time involved in programming a CNC is more practical for a hobbyist with those skills for a single baffle system. Someone who doesn't mind spending many hours figuring everything out, unpaid. For a commercial shop they'd not likely go to all that trouble for less than a couple of dozen suppressors.

Basically it is exactly like the angle circle baffle design.
angled disk baffles but there are two disks that are angled in opposite directions. i am planning on having the baffles be machined from a single cylinder of 4150 steel or something else/something better.
Im perfectly fine with it weighing a lot. also it wont be full length, in my design i mentioned about a possible modular aspect to the design with it being a two part suppressor with the first part having the ability to attach to a barrel and the second part being able to attach to the the first baffle set. the first baffle set will be used for pistols.
i was planning on using steel. what do you mean by ''conspicuous insert in the blast chamber?'' also how long should the blast chamber be? im debating between 2 to 4 inches but not sure which one. also is there a better steel to use than 4150? another thing id like to have some sort of locking mechanism so the suppressor wont unscrew itself and am wondering if there is a way i can do that.
I'll be designing the suppressor, if that's what you meant. i dont think thats what you meant so what do you mean by programming a CNC?

[a_canadian]

Sorry, auto-correct on my phone. I meant Inconel not conspicuous.

CNC - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control - computer is just so many wires and such without a programmed set of instructions. Your design needs to be translated into a long string of tool movements.

I have no idea regarding other parameters. Never made a bigbore suppressor.

[Hannibalbarca]

Sorry, auto-correct on my phone. I meant Inconel not conspicuous.

CNC - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control - computer is just so many wires and such without a programmed set of instructions. Your design needs to be translated into a long string of tool movements.

I have no idea regarding other parameters. Never made a bigbore suppressor.

I see, program the movements for the cutting.
Now isnt that done automatically by the CNC machine itself using software? to my knowledge you just upload the cad file or whatever and then it does the rest.
sure a person would need to reposition during portions of the process but that's really all - at least the way i understand it.

[a_canadian]

I'll bow out in favour of those who have a clue. All I know about CNC stuff is from a couple of machinist friends who spend most of their machining time these days in front of computers, doing all the real CNC work before material gets mounted in the machines. Once a programming job has been set it's just a matter of feeding the beast for the production run. Perhaps a well developed drawing is all that's needed... but my intuition says there's a lot more to it than that...

Oh, and if it's just to be slanted washers in a zigzag formation, why not just weld it together from plates and have someone precision bore the hole after truing the assembly and threading the ends?

[Hannibalbarca]

I'll bow out in favour of those who have a clue. All I know about CNC stuff is from a couple of machinist friends who spend most of their machining time these days in front of computers, doing all the real CNC work before material gets mounted in the machines. Once a programming job has been set it's just a matter of feeding the beast for the production run. Perhaps a well developed drawing is all that's needed... but my intuition says there's a lot more to it than that...

Oh, and if it's just to be slanted washers in a zigzag formation, why not just weld it together from plates and have someone precision bore the hole after truing the assembly and threading the ends?

because it wouldn't be as strong and because i dont think id be able to find washers in 4150 steel nor ones that meat my thickness requirement.
also i dont know how to weld.
also if next time you meet one of your machinist friends would you mind asking them exactly what is needed to make a suppressor or really anything?
is it just 3d cad file of the design thats needed or is there something more to it as you said.

[a_canadian]

Well I only see those guys maybe every year or two, so I'm sure you can do better by doing a bit of research. Besides, none of them makes suppressors, so no direct answer possible. My own work in the field is strictly limited to smallbore stuff, mostly air, done at home on a miniature lathe with no thread cutting potential. Youtube is handy for learning about CNC and machining in general. For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U99asuD ... m74VkxYjhJ

As for strength, sure, I suppose it could be stronger if all cut from one piece. But that style of baffle system can be executed in any metal you like (doesn't have to be washers - any kind of sheet steel will work) using TIG welds in a simple fixture then turned in a lathe to cylindrical in the right size to fit your tube, then threaded at the ends and bored. Proper TIG welds will be as strong as machined baffles. A machinist's time to do those finishing operations on a lathe isn't going to cost anything close to what you're talking about for milling from solid bar stock. Of course you'd want to make sure there's no runout on the boring, but a good machinist should be able to do that just fine.

[300sniper]

i will be designing the suppressor. i would simply be using a tool(cnc machine) of theirs to make the suppressor, this isnt illegal.
plenty of others have done this, used cnc machine shops with form 1s, and it was perfectly fine.

I mean no offense but based on your quote below, I don't think you're going to find anyone willing to let you use their CNC machinery. A single mistake typing .100" instead of .010" in a program can do thousands of dollars of damage in less than a second.

I see, program the movements for the cutting.
Now isnt that done automatically by the CNC machine itself using software? to my knowledge you just upload the cad file or whatever and then it does the rest.
sure a person would need to reposition during portions of the process but that's really all - at least the way i understand it.

[Hannibalbarca]

Well I only see those guys maybe every year or two, so I'm sure you can do better by doing a bit of research. Besides, none of them makes suppressors, so no direct answer possible. My own work in the field is strictly limited to smallbore stuff, mostly air, done at home on a miniature lathe with no thread cutting potential. Youtube is handy for learning about CNC and machining in general. For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U99asuD ... m74VkxYjhJ

As for strength, sure, I suppose it could be stronger if all cut from one piece. But that style of baffle system can be executed in any metal you like (doesn't have to be washers - any kind of sheet steel will work) using TIG welds in a simple fixture then turned in a lathe to cylindrical in the right size to fit your tube, then threaded at the ends and bored. Proper TIG welds will be as strong as machined baffles. A machinist's time to do those finishing operations on a lathe isn't going to cost anything close to what you're talking about for milling from solid bar stock. Of course you'd want to make sure there's no runout on the boring, but a good machinist should be able to do that just fine.

yes but will sheet metal stand up to thousands of rounds of ammo that varies from 22 all the way to 510 beck(cartridge designed to shoot 50 bmg projectiles from ar 10s)? now of course i wont be shooting almost any 510 beck, though i will be shooting plenty of super sonic 308 and 5.56.
i was expecting it to cost about 80 an hour for the cnc machine suppressor build with a max total of 500.

[Hannibalbarca]

i will be designing the suppressor. i would simply be using a tool(cnc machine) of theirs to make the suppressor, this isnt illegal.
plenty of others have done this, used cnc machine shops with form 1s, and it was perfectly fine.

I mean no offense but based on your quote below, I don't think you're going to find anyone willing to let you use their CNC machinery. A single mistake typing .100" instead of .010" in a program can do thousands of dollars of damage in less than a second.

I see, program the movements for the cutting.
Now isnt that done automatically by the CNC machine itself using software? to my knowledge you just upload the cad file or whatever and then it does the rest.
sure a person would need to reposition during portions of the process but that's really all - at least the way i understand it.

Im sure they would look over the designs.
and as ive said the cutting is done automatically with just the cad file, at least i believe it is. if it isnt then i still doubt that a human would need to input that much.

[300sniper]

i will be designing the suppressor. i would simply be using a tool(cnc machine) of theirs to make the suppressor, this isnt illegal.
plenty of others have done this, used cnc machine shops with form 1s, and it was perfectly fine.

I mean no offense but based on your quote below, I don't think you're going to find anyone willing to let you use their CNC machinery. A single mistake typing .100" instead of .010" in a program can do thousands of dollars of damage in less than a second.

I see, program the movements for the cutting.
Now isnt that done automatically by the CNC machine itself using software? to my knowledge you just upload the cad file or whatever and then it does the rest.
sure a person would need to reposition during portions of the process but that's really all - at least the way i understand it.

Im sure they would look over the designs.
and as ive said the cutting is done automatically with just the cad file, at least i believe it is. if it isnt then i still doubt that a human would need to input that much.

That's not how it works.

[a_canadian]

I wasn't referring to sheet metal, like a tinsmith uses. Steels come in lots of forms. Various thicknesses of sheet is one form. For example, cut some ovals out of your desired steel in 1/8" thickness, 1/4" for the blast baffle, lay those out between a pair of long strips in the same steel, then weld it all up. Then cut a slot down each side and lay in two more strips of the same steel in 1/8" and weld those to each baffle. Once that's assembled, spin it up in lathe and hit it with a side grinder to rough it down to size, then finish the OD with proper tooling. Supported 4 sides, should be very strong.

[Hannibalbarca]

I mean no offense but based on your quote below, I don't think you're going to find anyone willing to let you use their CNC machinery. A single mistake typing .100" instead of .010" in a program can do thousands of dollars of damage in less than a second.

Im sure they would look over the designs.
and as ive said the cutting is done automatically with just the cad file, at least i believe it is. if it isnt then i still doubt that a human would need to input that much.

That's not how it works.

How does it work then?
I assumed the software made the cutting pattern automatically from the cad file.

[Hannibalbarca]

I wasn't referring to sheet metal, like a tinsmith uses. Steels come in lots of forms. Various thicknesses of sheet is one form. For example, cut some ovals out of your desired steel in 1/8" thickness, 1/4" for the blast baffle, lay those out between a pair of long strips in the same steel, then weld it all up. Then cut a slot down each side and lay in two more strips of the same steel in 1/8" and weld those to each baffle. Once that's assembled, spin it up in lathe and hit it with a side grinder to rough it down to size, then finish the OD with proper tooling. Supported 4 sides, should be very strong.

I see.
cut the desired disks
cut out a small portion of one disk in a rectangular fashion and then slide one disk into this cut, then weld it together and then drill a projectile hole through the center.
also have the same sort of rectangular drilled holes on the sides where a steel rod would go through to support the baffles and weld the disk baffles to the rod.
am I correct so far?

if that's what you mean i still need machining to do.
how much would it this cost vs the cnc monolithic design plus the welding?
again i have access to atlanta, chattanooga, nashville,and knoxville from which to choose the machinist, and or cnc, and or welding businesses.

also would this really be just as strong as a monolithic design? and what would be the best welding method to use, i know there are many different types of welding methods and im not very familiar with them.

[a_canadian]

Like I mentioned, TIG done properly should be fine. Heck, brazing would be great, if done nicely with some filletting, and if you didn't do big mag dumps to bring the can up to cherry red and melt the bronze. Not sure what you're saying about square holes and rods... perhaps it's time you posted a sketch?

As for lots of machinists, well, great, but as has been mentioned, most machinists won't be licensed for such work. You'll need a shop where they do suppressors regularly.

[Hannibalbarca]

Like I mentioned, TIG done properly should be fine. Heck, brazing would be great, if done nicely with some filletting, and if you didn't do big mag dumps to bring the can up to cherry red and melt the bronze. Not sure what you're saying about square holes and rods... perhaps it's time you posted a sketch?

As for lots of machinists, well, great, but as has been mentioned, most machinists won't be licensed for such work. You'll need a shop where they do suppressors regularly.

what i meant was you do a rectangular cut into the disk, then insert a second disk into that cut(the cut would be as thick as the disk) to make a criss crossed baffle of two disks.
you do the same sort of cut at the top of both disks(theyre pointing away from each other in an x pattern) and at the side of the disks.
you can then fit a steel rod through the cuts on all four sides and all the baffles would be connected together.
it would all be welded as well.

yes but technically it isn't a suppressor, i mean yes they're baffles but there is no way to actually use them.
i mean i found this on ebay

oh and by the way how is this legal? no seriously.
is this a sting operation or something?

[a_canadian]

A number of those eBay sellers have been shut down. Customer lists confiscated. Arrests made in at least one case. The BATF doesn't advertise their activities. I wouldn't buy a thing like that online. It's asking for trouble. A business like a proper machine shop isn't going to risk being shut down and losing their assets over one sub-$500 job. Maybe a little muffler shop doing silencers and FA glock switches on the side for bikers, but not a legit machine shop. I know that my local machine shop has been approached to make silencers a number of times. But not going to happen. They net a couple of million a year doing all sorts of interesting custom work. Why risk that for a few thousand dollars making illegal stuff?

I've seen a few pictures of welded rod washer type baffle assemblies which have collapsed in use. You'd want a lot more surface area than rods for the welds. That's why I said bars. 1/2" x 1/8" each, as long as the baffle stack, lots of short welds. But from your description I'm now picturing a bunch of X baffles, not a zigzag. Doesn't sound very efficient. No sketch?

This assembly of bent washers will suppress better for smaller calibers than an X shaped washer baffle system. No good for anything too high powered.



You'd want something more like long cones with spacers, all welded together then welded into a strong tube for the big stuff.