Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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DavidHeart
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Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

Howdy! Well I filed my form 1 a while ago and finally received approval. I was planning on using SD Tactical's "hardware" to build a 6 inch titanium suppressor, but now they've apparently run into some issues?

My paperwork says the suppressor is 6 inch... that's the only spec I put in for it other than it being 30 caliber. Now I'm just looking for somebody who's legit, and won't take weeks to fulfill a parts order. I know about Diversified Machine, but I also saw a thread in which he's taken several months to fulfill orders! So now I've been looking at buying from Crosshair Customs: https://www.crosshaircustoms.com/

When I filed my original thought was that I just want to have one rifle suppressor mostly for hunting purposes. (Yes, it's legal here.) I don't like the loud "BOOM" when I'm hunting and sometimes I take my little girl with me and I was concerned for her hearing as time went on. I wanted to build it out of Ti because I don't plan to have multiple suppressors and I wanted this one to last.

For my build purposes I was going to do the "traditional" solvent trap with freeze plugs. Six inches in total length, up to 30 caliber, lightweight for hunting squirrel, rabbit, & deer in our thick brush. I'm really open to suggestions at this point now that SD is down, my idea has been thrown up in the air. We also only have about four weeks left in small game season.... I don't own a lathe or machine shop, but I have access to a drill press and basic tools.

Any opinions? Any experience? Thank you!
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by cdakers »

Crosshair Customs IS SDTA stuff. That's where it all comes from. Your design sounds too short to be very effective on rifle calibers. You would also be much better served with proper internals versus the freeze plugs, but that's a personal decision. Build it longer and just notify AFT of the length change.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

Ah, thank you on the confirmation for Crosshair Customs! Then that's where I'll buy my "kit" from.

It's legal to build a different length? I didn't know I could do that... Would building to 8 inch make a big difference? I don't want a huge thing hanging off the end because most of our hunting is <100 yards around here and maneuverability is important. I've seen a fair amount of guys running 6 inch suppressors.

Where could I source different/better internals? Input appreciated!

Edit: I found out how to submit a change in length to the ATF through another thread. I'd still like to keep it at 6 inches if it's reasonable. Again, open to opinions.
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T-Rex
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by T-Rex »

6" will cut the bark, undoubtedly. With hunting, you're not burning through ammo like you would at the bench so it may serve it's purpose. If you're going to use all Ti, I'd go 8-9" and give yourself an advantage on suppression. What's it going to add, maybe 4-5oz? Not a huge sacrifice, considering you're not carrying a battle rifle w/ full loadout.

Did you check zmachine for internals? I know there are at least 2 more recommended suppliers of internals. Even VSRs would be better than FPs, but the Ti ones are almost as much $$ as the machined parts.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

I know CHC sells a 7.6" D-Cell Ti tube that's only $10 more so I'll guess the assembled length would be 8 inches in that case. I'll just need to file a notice to inform the ATF of the change...

I'll think about the length. My biggest concern is as you say, "cutting the bark" from that single blast while hunting. I wish there was a way to quantifiably know the difference 2 inches makes.

I don't know what zmachine is? Where are reputable places I should look for internals?

Edit: I found this https://zmachineworx.com/ but each cone is $26 (Ti) or $16 (SS). That gets pricey fairly quickly. I'd need.... 8?
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T-Rex
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by T-Rex »

Yes, $26/baffle looks costly. However, an all Ti suppressor can be had for around $300; that's unheard of for a commercial alternative. Plus, you said you don't plan to have a bunch of suppressors so the cost is justifiable. I consider it a steal and the cost of not owning machine tools.
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fishman
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by fishman »

Remember, each inch you add to a silencer provides less noise reduction than the last. A 6" silencer is louder, but more efficient in terms of decibel reduction per inch.

If you still hunt i would go with the longer option, if you do a lot of walking through the woods then I'd go shorter, less gun to snag on brush.
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Historian
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by Historian »

fishman wrote:Remember, each inch you add to a silencer provides less noise reduction than the last. A 6" silencer is louder, but more efficient in terms of decibel reduction per inch.

If you still hunt i would go with the longer option, if you do a lot of walking through the woods then I'd go shorter, less gun to snag on brush.
Forgive me if I am misreading above ( which is most often the case ... guys hate to read :) ) but
at first read it seems to contradict actual practice. E.g., 10" x 1" I.D. K-baffle can is
most certainly quieter than its 6" brother.

When HPA passes one of the goals is to try and order a 10" version Ruger .22 can; or
if necessary, purchase two and make a 10" holder. The ultimate 'Pimped Artillery
Luger' looking S&W 41, Ray Brandes Barrel, Randall Fung grips,1 MOA Red Dot sight. :)
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by c5_nc »

I don't think you will get your order. Even before the latest round members on another form 1 board said their orders were not fulfilled and they eventually had to get chargebacks to get their money back. I just visited the site and was able to add hundreds of tubes to my shopping cart, which is a good indication they don't have live/real inventory. They won't be able to get the parts from SDTA to fulfill the orders now that SDTA is using them as commercial suppressor components.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

c5_nc wrote:I don't think you will get your order. Even before the latest round members on another form 1 board said their orders were not fulfilled and they eventually had to get chargebacks to get their money back. I just visited the site and was able to add hundreds of tubes to my shopping cart, which is a good indication they don't have live/real inventory......
I spoke with a guy from Crosshair Customs. He told me if I placed me order the beginning of the week he should have it shipped out by Friday. It doesn't bother me that they don't have a live inventory, so long as the turn around is ~1 week instead of ~6 months.
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fishman
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by fishman »

Historian wrote:
fishman wrote:Remember, each inch you add to a silencer provides less noise reduction than the last. A 6" silencer is louder, but more efficient in terms of decibel reduction per inch.

If you still hunt i would go with the longer option, if you do a lot of walking through the woods then I'd go shorter, less gun to snag on brush.
Forgive me if I am misreading above ( which is most often the case ... guys hate to read :) ) but
at first read it seems to contradict actual practice. E.g., 10" x 1" I.D. K-baffle can is
most certainly quieter than its 6" brother.
longer silencers are indeed quieter, but my point was that longer silencers are less efficient per inch. you cant just make your silencer 30" and expect it to be twice as quiet as a 15" silencer, or 3 times as quiet as a 10" silencer.

going from 5" to 6" will make your silencer X decibels quieter, going from 6" to 7" will make your silencer Y decibels quieter, going from 7" to 8" will make it Z decibels quieter.

X>Y>Z
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CMV
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by CMV »

You definitely get to the point where "if some is good, more is better" no longer applies.

Just helped a friend do a rimfire can based off my last one but he wanted 1.125" OD vs the 1" OD on mine. After test firing last 2 baffles were still spotless - bright & shiny. Decided to play around with it a bit removing last baffle & then last 2. We could tell no difference with our 'calibrated ears' w/ 1 fewer baffle - still Hollywood. Could barely discern a difference with 2 removed which could very well have been in our heads. The difference to our ears was enough for both of us to reach the conclusion the can should have been made shorter.

I would suspect in centerfire rifle you'd have to go a lot further than a rimfire before you reached the point that additional baffles/length/volume aren't noticeable enough to be worth it. But since you still have the supersonic crack, might not matter much.
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Historian
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by Historian »

Fisherman, excellent clarification.

Thanks.

I am looking forward to when I can emulate the now removed PTK
YouTube showing his rugged ~10" K-baffle can whose sound
level was that of a pellet gun on his .22.

And CMV, your empirical real world data most appreciated.

As Commander Mel Lederman, in eternal peace in Arlington near
JFK, used to say " ... real world data - the cold water
enemas in the flabby butts of wrong thinking
". :)
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

fishman wrote:
Historian wrote:
fishman wrote:Remember, each inch you add to a silencer provides less noise reduction than the last. A 6" silencer is louder, but more efficient in terms of decibel reduction per inch.

If you still hunt i would go with the longer option, if you do a lot of walking through the woods then I'd go shorter, less gun to snag on brush.
going from 5" to 6" will make your silencer X decibels quieter, going from 6" to 7" will make your silencer Y decibels quieter, going from 7" to 8" will make it Z decibels quieter.

X>Y>Z
That's actually what I gleaned from your post as well. I gathered that the first ~6 may be critical, but after that I'm splitting hairs to get it 3 decibels quieter. And really, this is for stalking game (both deer and squirrel mainly) in tight brush.

CMV, what was the effective length you found for the rimfire can you were talking about? I know "D Cell" is 1.5 inches in diameter, so obviously I'll have a little more volume to help my situation.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by c5_nc »

...
Last edited by c5_nc on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
DavidHeart
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

c5_nc wrote:
DavidHeart wrote:
fishman wrote:
That's actually what I gleaned from your post as well. I gathered that the first ~6 may be critical, but after that I'm splitting hairs to get it 3 decibels quieter. And really, this is for stalking game (both deer and squirrel mainly) in tight brush.

CMV, what was the effective length you found for the rimfire can you were talking about? I know "D Cell" is 1.5 inches in diameter, so obviously I'll have a little more volume to help my situation.
I have a DM 1.5" (5.75" overall length) on my AR22. I've tested a variety of 7.6-9" 5.56 and 30cal cans on it also, they are slightly quieter. Its a pretty small margin. Replacing the barrel collar with a plastic one made a bigger difference than the can size.
Replacing the barrel collar with a plastic one? You lost me.... sorry. Not sure what piece you're talking about. And I'm making this can for up to 308 (I might throw some 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag through it, but not it's main purpose.)

Edit: Ok, so here's my build thought. I'll build it to 6 inches... mostly because I don't want to have to submit more paperwork to the ATF to modify my current approval if I were to switch to 8 inches. I'll pick up the CHC D-Cell kit (Tube, end cap, and adapter), and their D-Cell internal spacers, and I'll order up ZWorx 60 degree baffles. My final debate then would be if I should go with the standard threaded adapter or use their quick detach with muzzle brake. That's here: https://www.crosshaircustoms.com/produc ... h-adapter/

The muzzle brake is 2.375 inches long according to their website. I'm not a huge muzzle brake fan but my thought is that the break may help better distribute gases/noise inside the 6 inch suppressor. Use the first 2.5 inches of my 6 inch suppressor as a blast chamber, then end with 5 baffles. Each baffle skirt is listed as being .668 in length so my layout would end up being....

muzzle brake | Quick Detach (2.375 inside the spacer) | Spacer Tube (2.5) | Baffles x5 | End Cap

That'll put me right at about 6 inches give or take which I would modify the spacer sleeve to make everything tight.

Thoughts? Thanks!
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by c5_nc »

The other poster discussing the 22lr threw me off.

I've tested 5.75-10" on 308 I think you would be better off with the 8" for 308. They are pretty good about modifying the forms via email/chat/calls.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by T-Rex »

c5_nc wrote: I think you would be better off with the 8" for 308.
I agree, especially if you plan to fire just a single round of 7mmRM or 300WM through it.

Having an internal brake is not a bad idea, actually a good one. However, w/ all the issues related to QD mounts, and the fact you mention traveling through dense brush, I'd be leery of them. A drop of Rockset on direct threads should give a warm and fuzzy feeling.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by c5_nc »

Especially the brand of the QD in question, which many people have posted backs off the mount.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

Alrighty.... I just called the ATF to ask about the change. You're right, it's a really simple thing. "Just send us a copy of the approved form and a generic letter with the change."

It was no big deal to the ATF Agent... but I just wanted to double check to make absolute certain. So... 8 inch all Titanium 30 caliber:

muzzle brake | Quick Detach (With a drop of rockset, 2.375 length inside spacer | 2.5" spacer | ZWorx Baffles x 3 | 1.5" Spacer | ZWorx Baffles x3 | End Cap

Does that sound like a good plan? Any changes I should consider?
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by c5_nc »

A popular can of the past (triple x warrier) did somthing like that but most people now run a tight even stack. The cones you mention with .50" spacers (which puts spacing at .75" I think with the skirts on the cones). I'm still skeptical you will get the parts from the vendor, unless SDTA is selling them tubes under the table to them. Also I'm not sure if it is a accident or not but STDA is selling adapters and ends. You could just buy an apogee tube and get the ends from SDTA.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

The Zworx cones have a skirt that's ".668" so I figured 6 total will be about 4 inches total. If I stack them completely instead of spacers it'll take 8 baffles instead of 6.

Apogee tubes does not have an internal spacer to fit their tubes.... so I'm stuck trying to find something that'll fit from somewhere if I avoid Crosshair Customs entirely. As for CHC and SDTA having an affiliation, I wouldn't doubt it. Looks like the muzzle brake CHC sells and the muzzle brake SDTA sells are identical.

SDTA also does not sell the end cap. They only sell the muzzle brake adapter which will thread onto a D-Cell tube.

Furthermore, Apogee does not have a 7.6" tube which will make an 8 inch suppressor. They only have 7" (7.5" final result) or 8 3/4" (9 1/4" final result). I'd get the 7" tube, but they have no spacer... as previously stated. And if I get my muzzle bread and adapter from SDTA, I have no resource for the end cap.

Do you have another solution or idea I should look into?
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by c5_nc »

DavidHeart wrote:The Zworx cones have a skirt that's ".668" so I figured 6 total will be about 4 inches total. If I stack them completely instead of spacers it'll take 8 baffles instead of 6.

Apogee tubes does not have an internal spacer to fit their tubes.... so I'm stuck trying to find something that'll fit from somewhere if I avoid Crosshair Customs entirely. As for CHC and SDTA having an affiliation, I wouldn't doubt it. Looks like the muzzle brake CHC sells and the muzzle brake SDTA sells are identical.

SDTA also does not sell the end cap. They only sell the muzzle brake adapter which will thread onto a D-Cell tube.

Furthermore, Apogee does not have a 7.6" tube which will make an 8 inch suppressor. They only have 7" (7.5" final result) or 8 3/4" (9 1/4" final result). I'd get the 7" tube, but they have no spacer... as previously stated. And if I get my muzzle bread and adapter from SDTA, I have no resource for the end cap.

Do you have another solution or idea I should look into?
superprecisionconcepts.com/collections/adapters sells adapters and end caps. The SDTA qd brake is known to not work well, can backs off. You probably want Griffin QD or direct thread. Waiting for DM is the other option. DM has the tube and cone end caps in stock but you would have to wait for a product notification the adapter, or if you put in comments on order he may make one before shipping? The spacers from SDTA and DM will both fit the apogee tubes. SDTA makes their spacers so they fit the smaller steel tube also, and DM 1.350 spacer is undersized to fit in the tube also. So you could use the spc adapter with the SDTA or DM parts.
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by lmpdtroy »

I don't want to burst you bubble by I am trying to order a tube and end caps from crosshaircustoms.com and it has been 2 weeks and still nothing.
DavidHeart
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Re: Alternative to SDTA and opinions?

Post by DavidHeart »

No apologies needed. Thank you for bursting my bubble! At least you have experience with them. Because of your report I just bought a 7 inch tube from Apogee. Now to source the rest from reputable places....
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