Fondled a top tier can. questions and observations

[garredondojr]

So I had time to sit down and check out my cousin's high end suppressor (it's a popular titanium 7" 30 cal can is all i'll say)

anyways a few things that caught my attention and got the gears crunching was all but the blast baffle was clipped and more interestingly was the endcap had a decently long nozzle (greater than caliber in length).
I was leaning towards doing a profiled cap with a similar nozzle on my form 1 would this nozzle in essence help stabilize the bullet by controlling the gasses? I had planned on leaving the last baffle unclipped for that reason but wondering if I could get away with clipping it if I did the nozzle in the endcap.

I have shot and been around this and on his 20" .308 (tikka CTR) it's a very nice and quiet. definitely "hearing safe" from the shooter position.

The second thing that caught my attention was the baffles are in essence half size. rather than the cones going from wall to wall like most baffles you see on the market and here. ie. imagine you have a 1 3/8's baffle you leave it flat 1/4" from the wall of the suppressor then start machining the cone. I assume this would increase volume within the can? am I missing something? I would think a full sized baffle would be more beneficial?

last thing was this can has only a mere 6 baffles and it's noticeably quieter than the longer and much heavier 7.62sdn6 that has almost double the baffles and are full diameter.

Just trying to wrap my head around it. and wondering if my current plans should be altered (right now I was planning on .100 60' stepped blast baffle with 6 60' cones with 5 of them clipped and the profiled endcap (like a VSR)

[Sergeant]

imagine you have a 1 3/8's baffle you leave it flat 1/4" from the wall of the suppressor then start machining the cone.

I know a manufacturer here that does that. Baffles like what you described snap into spacers and the whole thing is welded together. Then pressed into the tube. Got to see the process from start to finish. Very impressive. I would imagine it gives more volume but there are minds here that know the science far better than I.
Sergeant

[garredondojr]

imagine you have a 1 3/8's baffle you leave it flat 1/4" from the wall of the suppressor then start machining the cone.

I know a manufacturer here that does that. Baffles like what you described snap into spacers and the whole thing is welded together. Then pressed into the tube. Got to see the process from start to finish. Very impressive. I would imagine it gives more volume but there are minds here that know the science far better than I.
Sergeant

lol judging by your location I think were talking about the same animal

[speed6]

Another company--let's call them "SuppressorCORP"--has a similar design with half-baffles etc--let's call it the "Alpha"--but their blast baffle is clipped.

[fishman]

rather than the cones going from wall to wall like most baffles you see on the market and here. ie. imagine you have a 1 3/8's baffle you leave it flat 1/4" from the wall of the suppressor then start machining the cone. I assume this would increase volume within the can? am I missing something? I would think a full sized baffle would be more beneficial?

This baffle style requires less raw material, each baffles is physically shorter. it also requires less machining; when it comes to CNC machines, time is money. Each baffle is also lighter and takes up less volume in the can.

does this help performance? hurt performance? no effect? i have no idea. But it does save money.

[garredondojr]

Another company--let's call them "SuppressorCORP"--has a similar design with half-baffles etc--let's call it the "Alpha"--but their blast baffle is clipped.

took me awhile to decode but got it now. thats interesting as these two are some of the front runners on the market. wonder if i'd be better off making a similar style baffle or sticking with the traditional full sized baffles???

[speed6]

rather than the cones going from wall to wall like most baffles you see on the market and here. ie. imagine you have a 1 3/8's baffle you leave it flat 1/4" from the wall of the suppressor then start machining the cone. I assume this would increase volume within the can? am I missing something? I would think a full sized baffle would be more beneficial?

This baffle style requires less raw material, each baffles is physically shorter. it also requires less machining; when it comes to CNC machines, time is money. Each baffle is also lighter and takes up less volume in the can.

does this help performance? hurt performance? no effect? i have no idea. But it does save money.

THIS. I just did some lean manufacturing training, and it's funny that everyone wants to cut "machine" time, but the majority of waste is in the time when the part is off the machine, i.e. setting up the part, moving it between operations, waiting on a cart for QC/dimensional checks etc. I can see the material cost being less though, as that adds up, especially with titanium, inconel etc.

Funny (or sad) story: we put in a robot welding cell to weld hardfacing inlay on parts. The person ordering the cell didn't include an operation to clean all the coolant and chips off the parts before welding because that 10 seconds would "add too much to the cycle time." Waiting a day for rework instructions and the time required to cut out the bad weld and re-weld the part because of a contaminated weld is part of the overall cycle time. So, not waiting that 10 seconds costs an entire day.

[garredondojr]

i'll have to look into this a little more. so are you thinking their sacrificing DB in favor of reducing material cost and machine time?

I have to admit the reduction in weight per baffle does appeal to me. I could care less about the material usage or time as I want this can to be the best it can be as it may be my only rifle suppressor for a good while.

unfortunately we only get one shot per $200 and currently 9mo wait per try with our laws. now if HPA passed it would be on!

[joe0121]

I would think if having full dimension cones made a quieter can they would simply make a lower number of an uber super Alpha and Omega model and just pass the cost off on to the customer. I mean I just paid an extra 100 or so bucks for the Omega over buying the hybrid. To me 2-3 DB is worth 100 bucks and lack of ability to use on a 458 SOCOM when factoring the 1000 total cost of purchasing a can and government bribe/tax stamp.

Or maybe It is quieter in DB but the sound profile makes it "sound" louder.

Or maybe it makes no difference as far as sound and just lets them safe 5 bucks per can.

If I was independently wealthy I would have an 07 SOT and a 5 axis machining center and high end sound testing equipment and I could knock out a few tests. If I had to guess it probably makes little to no difference in sound.

[speed6]

I was thinking about this last night, and the "half baffles" (at least in the omega) might give you some coaxial volume compared to a straight cone. I.e., the distance the gas has to travel is slightly longer with a half-baffle, since it has to turn then travel some distance before hitting a wall. It's like traveling the two 90 degree legs of a right triangle instead of just the hypotenuse. Honestly, the silencer market is so competitive, and everyone seems so concerned about a few dB (typically) that the designs are probably as quiet as they can make them. So either there is a negligible effect from the half-baffle, or it even helps, and the reduced material cost is just a bonus. Having to add another operation to weld them to a spacer like that (with the aforementioned setup time, plus any time the part spends just sitting idle) probably negates any and all savings from using less material anyway.

[garredondojr]

I was thinking about this last night, and the "half baffles" (at least in the omega) might give you some coaxial volume compared to a straight cone. I.e., the distance the gas has to travel is slightly longer with a half-baffle, since it has to turn then travel some distance before hitting a wall. It's like traveling the two 90 degree legs of a right triangle instead of just the hypotenuse. Honestly, the silencer market is so competitive, and everyone seems so concerned about a few dB (typically) that the designs are probably as quiet as they can make them. So either there is a negligible effect from the half-baffle, or it even helps, and the reduced material cost is just a bonus. Having to add another operation to weld them to a spacer like that (with the aforementioned setup time, plus any time the part spends just sitting idle) probably negates any and all savings from using less material anyway.

That's kind of my thoughts as well a full machined baffle vs two machined parts welded together would be a wash or even more costly for the latter. you make a good argument about the multi directional change. the gases would divert off the 60' cone then hit a wall (or second steeper angle in the case of the omega) then lastly hit the tube wall causing yet another change in direction which should cause quite a bit of turbulence and slow the gasses quite a bit.

I think this may warrant a design change in my plans. if not for just the weight savings alone. I would still make it a one piece baffle vs spacer/cone. thinking a 60' cone to a 11' taper then shoulder it for the spacer (worried going 60' to a flat would put a lot of force on the stack like a piston)

[gunny50]

I did see half and partial discs as baffles welded and or stacked in a silencer at a Borderpolice station once.
They where illegally manufactured in the eastern-block and used by criminals they confiscated a decent bunch there.

There was also a guy at some Russian Silencer forum that produced these about 5 years back.

Later I did see the following paten, and just to make sure I'm NOT saying these 2 are connected in any way air shape below is the patent from FN

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis. ... D00002.png
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis. ... D00003.png

Gunny

[garredondojr]

I did see half and partial discs as baffles welded and or stacked in a silencer at a Borderpolice station once.
They where illegally manufactured in the eastern-block and used by criminals they confiscated a decent bunch there.

There was also a guy at some Russian Silencer forum that produced these about 5 years back.

Later I did see the following paten, and just to make sure I'm NOT saying these 2 are connected in any way air shape below is the patent from FN

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis. ... D00002.png
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis. ... D00003.png

Gunny

Gunny those are pretty interesting but different that what were talking about. the style i'm speaking of is say you have a 1.5" diameter tube (so ~1 3/8 ID) and you still have 60' cones but there say 7/8" in diameter and welded to a 1 3/8" diameter disc. so the gasses will then deflect off the 60' cones and hit a wall that is perpendicular to the tube wall rather than a 60' baffle that goes to the tube wall like what is most common on form 1's we see here.

i'm thinking of taking that same design but rather than the abrupt change (and what i'd feel would act like a piston putting alot of stress on the baffle stack) is to say machine the 60' cone at roughly the 7/8's diameter but for the remaining 1/2"(or 1/4" per side) machine a steeper angle like say 11's (included angle so 5.5's on the compound) then machine a small shoulder for the spacers. I would machine both sides of the baffle in the same fashion.

[Historian]

What do the cardboard wine box dividers and the wall shelf sculpture have in common?

Divider:<< https://www.pinterest.com/pin/136163588703685511/ >>

Wall Shelf: << https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... cda028.jpg >>

Each is made up of vertical and horizontal slabs that are firmly fixed together
by half cuts on each piece.

<< http://www.home-dzine.co.za/diy/images/shelf-05.jpg >>

Or known to cabinet makers as a crossed half lap* join.

<< http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/ ... alflap.jpg >>

There was a baffle design made up of circular disks having six (6) half the radius
cross laps from the circumference to the center.

They were solidly held together with 6 vertical rectangular half lapped steel
strips. Whimsically called " a steel corncob". This multi-chambered 'hair roller'
was quickly assembled and inserted into a cylinder. The central hole was
the 'elevator shaft' through which the bullet passed. The gasses expanded
into the 6 pie slices at each level.

Disassembly was easy and broken down into the disks and side pieces.

Pre monocore days.

A real firearms curiosa.


* << http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/ ... yterms.htm >>

[garredondojr]

here's a quick paint picture trying to show the difference.

black is the style I seen on the factory can.

red is what i'm thinking of trying.

green is standard 60' full sized baffle

[gunny50]

So a Sandman baffle without th extra ridge on th author 60 degree cone?


Gunny

[garredondojr]

haven't seen those before Gunny but in essence yes