Page 1 of 1

When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:18 am
by partsguy22
At what point in the building process is the can done ?

Is it after its built as you originally planned ?
what if after 2-3 test shots you decide it needs another baffle or a different length spacer for the blast chamber?
is test firing a suppressor "finishing" it or is it part of the build procedure?
what if the baffles need to be clipped ?

I'm not talking about repairs or replacing worn out parts

I know that a F1 isn't a permission slip to "experiment", however where is the line between work in progress and a finished suppressor?

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:57 am
by John A.
Please don't open Pandora's box.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:01 pm
by doubloon
My understanding is it is finished once the parts are cut, even before assembly. Cut each part once, no oopsies or do-overs because a Form 1 is a non-licensee and not a "manufacturer".

Also, as I understand it, adjustments after the parts are cut to the original plan are not part of the deal.

And listen to John. Find somebody qualified to talk to about it off the interwebs and for chrissake don't write a letter.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:33 pm
by partsguy22
This is just a thought experiment

There will be no letter

I'm not trying to open Pandoras box

My understanding is it is finished once the parts are cut, even before assembly. Cut each part once, no oopsies or do-overs because a Form 1 is a non-licensee and not a "manufacturer".
I'm also not talking about remaking parts that are incorrect made wrong but since you brought it up when is a part a part and not a piece of bar stock or tube ? When its "chosen" to be a future part? or after the first op or once its a completed part ? I'm not saying I don't like how this baffle performed and I'm going to remake it buy what if on your first op you turned it to small is that it is it game over ? or is it still a just piece of bar stock? and if you have bored a hole in it ?

Also, as I understand it, adjustments after the parts are cut to the original plan are not part of the deal.
And what is this "original plan" You speak of. Most times I have a rough idea of size but I never have a "plan" :lol:

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:59 pm
by doubloon
Yay, no letter.

First, I don't agree with all the ATF decisions so don't take any of this as me telling you what you have to do.
partsguy22 wrote:...
I'm also not talking about remaking parts that are incorrect made wrong but since you brought it up when is a part a part and not a piece of bar stock or tube ? When its "chosen" to be a future part? or after the first op or once its a completed part ? I'm not saying I don't like how this baffle performed and I'm going to remake it buy what if on your first op you turned it to small is that it is it game over ? or is it still a just piece of bar stock? and if you have bored a hole in it ? ...
The NFA handbook goes into a significant amount of detail about who is a manufacturer, who is not a manufacturer, who can make what types of modifications, who can't make what types of modifications and what is considered a modification.

What is a part and what's not? On paper, if it can be assembled and it reduces the report of a firearm it's a suppressor and any individual one of the components whether assembled or all by its lonely self is a suppressor even when non of the other parts are around. If you carry one baffle around on your key chain technically it's a suppressor and a firearm.

This is where you say "Sure you stoopid internet cuck what about fender washers? lulz ... fkn bootjak likin moron .. lol" and that's where I bring up the vague notion of "constructive intent". If you have a box full of washers and pipe parts and you're a licensed plumber it's just washers and pipe. If you have a box full of washers and pipe parts along with one or more firearms with threaded barrels then it's a potential case for constructive intent. If some of those washers and pipe parts have gun shot residue on them then fk you, I don't know you, you bought the ticket enjoy the ride.

Next level, solvent traps. Some of the places selling solvent trap parts with marked centers have been busted by the ATF. It doesn't have a hole yet, it's "just a cup" but sometimes the ATF says you "intend" for it to be a silencer part so part plus intent pixie dust and VOILA silencer part and every part of a silencer is a silencer so suck it.

So as a non-licensee if I make a part wrong and I need to make it over can I just destroy it and make a new one? The ATF says sure you can, all you got to do is fill out a new Form 1 and pay another $200 ... again, my understanding but I'm not your lawyer.
partsguy22 wrote:...
Also, as I understand it, adjustments after the parts are cut to the original plan are not part of the deal.
And what is this "original plan" You speak of. Most times I have a rough idea of size but I never have a "plan" :lol:
Theoretically you're supposed to have a design before you start. The ATF does not [currently] require people to submit designs and is not equipped to deal with the possibility of keeping track of or validating builds to designs but please don't give them a reason to start trying.

Unfortunately it's not 100% black and white, it's open to the whim of the regulatory interpretation of the institution that is the BATFE. Some people take the stance that it's better to ask for forgiveness [in court] than permission. The forgiveness tack might work out once in a while but when it doesn't you're really fk'd.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:20 pm
by partsguy22
Don't Get me wrong, I get where your coming from and I'm not arguing what makes a a manufacturer and I know how the ATF defines "suppressor parts"

hypothetical situation #1 :
1-- you machine all your parts (baffles, tube, caps and spacers) the start to assemble it and find one of the spacers is .125" to long. Can you trim that spacer to length? or is it a complete suppressor st that point and you then have to send it to a 07/02 or have to fill out a new f1 + tax

2-- same as above except instead of being to long its .125" to short can you remake a spacer...? or even add another spacer to take up the clearance?

3-- same situation but everything goes perfect ...except the first range trip you notice after firing it the stack has compressed a burr on one of the spacers and now rattles in the body is it a repair or is it just a matter of adding a "pre-planned optional" spacer

hypothetical situation #2

You are making the muzzle end cap and have the muzzle threads (ID) done and are moving on to the tube threads (OD) and forgot to reset the dial to Zero on your lathes cross slide and take a .080" cut instead of the .040" inch cut you meant to to take the part to so now the OD is much smaller than necessary, its now 1.0
OD instead of the 1.040 that you needed for your new rimfire can, now you cant possibly thread that to 1.045" x 28tpi . Are you F***ed ? or do you now have a thread-protector for the host rifle ? because thats what you were making the whole time (you were making a thread protector, right? :wink: ) and then (more carefully) make your end cap. The part was never an end cap all it was was a part with an internally threaded hole.

I know I'm trying to apply logic to the ATF .

I don't think any of us agree with the STUPID way the ATF regulates this

ETA: just another thought

At what point when you are making dinner is it a meal and not raw ingredients ?

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:02 pm
by fishman
partsguy22 wrote:you now have a thread-protector for the host rifle ? because thats what you were making the whole time (you were making a thread protector, right? :wink: ) and then (more carefully) make your end cap. The part was never an end cap all it was was a part with an internally threaded hole.
I have 3 very large thread protectors, roughly 1.625" OD. 2 of them have their ODs threaded to increase surface area cooling.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:12 pm
by doubloon
partsguy22 wrote:Don't Get me wrong, I get where your coming from and I'm not arguing what makes a a manufacturer and I know how the ATF defines "suppressor parts" ...
I don't think I am, you're not coming across as the average idiot who shows up here once in a while the impossibly stupid totally illegal questions.

Nothing I've posted is meant to be personal, I'm just operating at the limit of what I am pretending to be knowledge. :D

There are people who know more than me who will provide better answers, looks like one already joined the fray.
partsguy22 wrote:...
At what point when you are making dinner is it a meal and not raw ingredients ?
When you pull the oyster off the bed it's intended to be a meal, It's actually a meal once you crack it open. But ATF says it's a meal when you pull it off the bed.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:10 pm
by partsguy22
When you pull the oyster off the bed it's intended to be a meal, It's actually a meal once you crack it open. But ATF says it's a meal when you pull it off the bed.
What if I decide to put hot sauce on my oyster...or heaven forbid decide to make fried oysters

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:11 pm
by Capt. Link.
partsguy22 wrote:At what point in the building process is the can done ?
as you originally planned ?
A suppressor should be made with great care for safety reasons.Parts that do not fall within spec are destroyed as scrap and not part of the build .Why would anyone accept scrap parts that are not to spec is beyond me. I think this falls into the scope & spirit of the law.

Read the laws very carefully using the BATFE word definitions.Don't read into a rule making it more than it states.Its legal unless the book says its not.You do have some flexibility within the rules without abusing the intent.

When its ready to be shot or sold then its done.

Just my .02 see ya................

-CL

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:43 pm
by doubloon
Capt. Link. wrote:...
Just my .02 see ya................

-CL
His .02 is worth more than my $50.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:40 am
by Historian
doubloon wrote:
Capt. Link. wrote:...
Just my .02 see ya................

-CL
His .02 is worth more than my $50.
I second this sound opinion by Doubloon!


I shall always remember the wisdom conveyed by my old
( served in WW2 and Korea) and deeply
revered ROTC Master Sergeant:

"When in doubt Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform! My Daddy's motto
that has served me this far".

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:12 am
by propeine
partsguy22 wrote:Don't Get me wrong, I get where your coming from and I'm not arguing what makes a a manufacturer and I know how the ATF defines "suppressor parts"

hypothetical situation #1 :
1-- you machine all your parts (baffles, tube, caps and spacers) the start to assemble it and find one of the spacers is .125" to long. Can you trim that spacer to length? or is it a complete suppressor st that point and you then have to send it to a 07/02 or have to fill out a new f1 + tax

2-- same as above except instead of being to long its .125" to short can you remake a spacer...? or even add another spacer to take up the clearance?

3-- same situation but everything goes perfect ...except the first range trip you notice after firing it the stack has compressed a burr on one of the spacers and now rattles in the body is it a repair or is it just a matter of adding a "pre-planned optional" spacer

hypothetical situation #2

You are making the muzzle end cap and have the muzzle threads (ID) done and are moving on to the tube threads (OD) and forgot to reset the dial to Zero on your lathes cross slide and take a .080" cut instead of the .040" inch cut you meant to to take the part to so now the OD is much smaller than necessary, its now 1.0
OD instead of the 1.040 that you needed for your new rimfire can, now you cant possibly thread that to 1.045" x 28tpi . Are you F***ed ? or do you now have a thread-protector for the host rifle ? because thats what you were making the whole time (you were making a thread protector, right? :wink: ) and then (more carefully) make your end cap. The part was never an end cap all it was was a part with an internally threaded hole.

I know I'm trying to apply logic to the ATF .

I don't think any of us agree with the STUPID way the ATF regulates this

ETA: just another thought

At what point when you are making dinner is it a meal and not raw ingredients ?
No creepy vans outside my garage, nobody hanging out watching over my shoulder. There is a reason that my "build threads" are posted at my version of completion because then they become public knowledge. I think every time this has been a complete can, with a video or picture "in action" which would mean it is complete. Now if I want to make changes it takes an 02/07.

As to the theoretical, what if you mess up a spacer or a baffle, well it isn't a spacer or a baffle until I say it is and if it is messed up I guess it isn't one now is it? Otherwise every piece of bar stock that baffles were made out of could have been 3 baffles or 5 depending on how I made it. How does the ATF know how many illegal suppressors to charge me for? Do they ask how many baffles I intended to make? If it was already a baffle when I intended to make one then how does my titanium from Israel work out?

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:19 am
by doubloon
propeine wrote:... If it was already a baffle when I intended to make one then how does my titanium from Israel work out?
That's more or less why I say when you pull the oyster off the bed it demonstrates your intent.

To me the bed is your raw stock and pulling an oyster off the bed is akin to starting to cut a baffle in my mind. It's in process, technically it's can't be used as a baffle yet or, in the case of the oyster, you can't eat it yet. But once you've opened it then it's a meal. Fry it? Sauce? That's all anodizing, polishing, finishing but none of it is changing the basic makeup of the oyster ... you're not really changing the shape, size or caliber of the baffle.

The truth is I think it's all bullshit anyway and there is no way to make a real life example of how it always works in the mind of the ATF because the enforcements I've read about appear to me to be arbitrary and inconsistent.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:15 pm
by propeine
doubloon wrote:
propeine wrote:... If it was already a baffle when I intended to make one then how does my titanium from Israel work out?
That's more or less why I say when you pull the oyster off the bed it demonstrates your intent.

To me the bed is your raw stock and pulling an oyster off the bed is akin to starting to cut a baffle in my mind. It's in process, technically it's can't be used as a baffle yet or, in the case of the oyster, you can't eat it yet. But once you've opened it then it's a meal. Fry it? Sauce? That's all anodizing, polishing, finishing but none of it is changing the basic makeup of the oyster ... you're not really changing the shape, size or caliber of the baffle.

The truth is I think it's all bullshit anyway and there is no way to make a real life example of how it always works in the mind of the ATF because the enforcements I've read about appear to me to be arbitrary and inconsistent.
For the record, I don't modify after test firing other than maybe clipping baffles. I have no judgement of better or worse and no chance to make a new baffle if I screw one up then. So my vote goes to after assembly and test firing 2nd but mostly keep your trap shut first.

I have been fortunate to not have any baffle strikes, launched components downrange etc because my moral compass doesn't align with "wait 12 months and send in 200 more dollars" for replacements but I am anti federal prison so I'm glad I haven't had to make that decision.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ?

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:05 pm
by cdakers
propeine wrote:I have been fortunate to not have any baffle strikes, launched components downrange etc because my moral compass doesn't align with "wait 12 months and send in 200 more dollars" for replacements but I am anti federal prison so I'm glad I haven't had to make that decision.
+1 on this. I hope I don't have to make that decision either.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:42 am
by cdhknives
I would hope that following common industrial manufacturing practices would be acceptable for a home build. In other words, the manufacturing process in most (reputable anyway) manufacturing companies includes quality control checks. If the firearms industry doesn't call a firearm complete until after test fire, I would consider the same applicable to a home built firearm (which is the technical classification of a suppressor). The ATF may disagree, I pray I never have to argue it to a jury, but I am comfortable with this distinction in my own work. Once it is successfully test fired, it's complete. All the fitting in the world is still manufacturing. Bad parts are scrap, not suppressor parts, treat them as such. Shoot it and you're done.

My 2 cents, YMMV, I am not a lawyer, I did NOT sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, all advice is worth less than you paid for it, my shop is not your shop, you are responsible for your own actions, laws in Texas might be different in your state, know before you act, etc. etc. etc.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:32 pm
by crazyelece
cdhknives wrote:I would hope that following common industrial manufacturing practices would be acceptable for a home build. In other words, the manufacturing process in most (reputable anyway) manufacturing companies includes quality control checks. If the firearms industry doesn't call a firearm complete until after test fire, I would consider the same applicable to a home built firearm (which is the technical classification of a suppressor). The ATF may disagree, I pray I never have to argue it to a jury, but I am comfortable with this distinction in my own work. Once it is successfully test fired, it's complete. All the fitting in the world is still manufacturing. Bad parts are scrap, not suppressor parts, treat them as such. Shoot it and you're done.

My 2 cents, YMMV, I am not a lawyer, I did NOT sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, all advice is worth less than you paid for it, my shop is not your shop, you are responsible for your own actions, laws in Texas might be different in your state, know before you act, etc. etc. etc.
There is a flaw in your logic. If a firearm manufacturer tests a firearm and deems it unfit, it is discarded/destroyed. It is still a firearm until destroyed to ATF specs. A manufacturer can then move on to the next unit. They can't just deem that unfit firearm "not a firearm" and sell it on ebay. As a form 1 builder I guess you get the same privledge, but you can't move on to the next one without another approved form 1.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:48 pm
by cdhknives
crazyelece wrote:
There is a flaw in your logic. If a firearm manufacturer tests a firearm and deems it unfit, it is discarded/destroyed. It is still a firearm until destroyed to ATF specs. A manufacturer can then move on to the next unit. They can't just deem that unfit firearm "not a firearm" and sell it on ebay. As a form 1 builder I guess you get the same privledge, but you can't move on to the next one without another approved form 1.
I hear you and get your logic. The problem there is the whole gist of this question. When is a suppressor a firearm. That point is pretty well defined for the gun manufacturers...when the receiver is functionally complete (the whole 80% receiver movement rides the edge of this line hard...for example). It is still quite grey for us form 1 types. I agree that when it becomes a firearm and gets a serial number, it is 'done'. When we form 1 people are required to etch that serial number into our can is not defined to my satisfaction. I plan to mark that serial number once it is 'complete'. Ergo, it is done after a successful test fire. Even the factories get a day to s/n their receivers once they are machined.

I really think this is much ado over nothing, but as a mental exercise I like taking the time to talk it through...

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:52 pm
by doubloon
cdhknives wrote:
crazyelece wrote:...
I really think this is much ado over nothing, but as a mental exercise I like taking the time to talk it through...
Pretty much.

If you are in so deep they're checking the completeness of your suppressor they'll just add it to the list of all the things that brought them to your door in the first place.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:54 am
by whiterussian1974
cdhknives wrote: When is a suppressor a firearm... I agree that when it becomes a firearm and gets a serial number, it is 'done'. When we form 1 people are required to etch that serial number into our can is not defined to my satisfaction. I plan to mark that serial number once it is 'complete'. Ergo, it is done after a successful test fire...
I love the fact the "just keep your mouth shut" is the leading answer on the Poll. :mrgreen:

Doesn't a tube need a S/N BEFORE it's assembled. Otherwise, it's illegal. The suppressor is a "Firearm" LONG before it is "finished."
A "successful" test fire.
What constitutes "success?" A tube that attached to the muzzle and features no baffles is a "success" in that no one suffered grievous bodily injury.

Without a Serialized tube, you have a "Collection of un-serialized suppressor parts." Therefore, EACH is a unique suppressor.

Re: When is A Form 1 Can "Completed" ? WARNING : Contains lots of gray area

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:06 am
by whiterussian1974
Now I'll treat each Option separately:
1-A set time frame 0% 0% [ 0 ]
2-As soon as its assembled 23% 23% [ 6 ]
3-After its test fired and deemed acceptable 23% 23% [ 6 ]
4-After its "tuned" for best performance 8% 8% [ 2 ]
5-Just keep you mouth shut and do what you need to 38% 38% [ 10 ] x
6-Something else (please explain)
1- Never been defined by Statute or Judicial Ruling.
2- So if you check the endcap threads match the tube, it is "assembled." You had better have PERFECTLY made all of the internal components PRIOR to checking the endcap threads.
3- As stated above, if it doesn't cause injury, it's acceptable. Thus, even BEFORE making the components, it's ACCEPTABLE to ATF.
4- "Tuned" You can remove material, but not add to it once the Components are made.
5- Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner. Just hope that they aren't 3 squares and an hour Rec per day.
6- I WON'T give any other Options. None of us should.