5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 10/6/2017

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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T-Rex
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5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 10/6/2017

Post by T-Rex »

It's been a while since a build was posted so I thought it was a good time to share. I have a stack of Form 1's sitting around and just started getting to them. I really wanted to get this 5.56mm can going first, but it was too time consuming on my smaller machine and I had another lathe to restore. Earlier last year, I helped a friend's widow and, for my efforts, was bequeathed a 1947 South Bend 9A. Over the winter, I stripped it down and built it back up. Please, don't bother commenting on the finish. I dare not destroy the beauty of this piece of American history and, to tell you the truth, much prefer its worn appearance to a fresh coat of color. Here's a pic of my "new" larger lathe. Taken after testing VFD/Motor rotation so many pieces are not in the pic.

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I upgraded the motor to a new 3ph Baldor and complemented it with a Teco VFD. I've been in a haste and am currently running a suicide cord, to an outlet in my shop, until I tie into the panel. There's a new ER16 CNC spindle waiting for me to wire up and make a mount, for live tooling. Everything will be controlled from a local, user panel, when I get around to it.

The first thing I did on the lathe

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Chopping a 16" barrel to 10"ish and threading.

So, onto the suppressor.
All parts are 17-4SS, cut in Cond A, and will be heat treated post-weld.
This is for my "go-to" carbine (for the 10"bbl). The OD has 3 steps, getting smaller towards the distal cap, so it kinda looks odd in the pic.

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Muzzle device still needs porting.
All baffles (8) ready for clipping (sans blast baffle) and porting (4 per baffle, 6 for blast)
I was originally going to use a traditional "half clip", but have decided to go with the "Dual Hybrid Clip" pioneered from a gentlemen named Rusty, on the Form1 boards.

After the porting and clipping, parts will be cleaned, baked, cleaned, welded, passivated, heat treated (H900), bead blasted, and coated in Socom Black

I will update the OP as the project progresses.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Update 8/19/17<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I know this is a silencer build thread, but I know there are a few who are interested in the building aspect a bit more than the final product. Being such, I thought I'd keep the machinery process documented as well.

Since I've only just restored and started using this lathe, things need to be tweaked and added to my liking. One of these things is a live tool spindle. I bought a water cooled, 1.5kW, 220v, CNC spindle. It came w/ a mount and VFD, and I already own a small pump for it. The following pics are of milling the Al mounting piece, to fix in the AXA tool holder, drilling the screw holes, and aligning the spindle before marking, drilling, and tapping the holes for its mount.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Update 9/1/2017<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sorry for the delay, a bit of life got in the way :wink: . That and the fact that I ordered cutters at 3 in the morning and got 3/32 instead of 3/16, doh!

Here are the baffles being clipped
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All Clipped and Blast Baffle ported (Baffle #2 is fixed in the lathe)
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Baffle #2 getting ready for porting
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Yes, I know the bit is hanging out there, but it was the only way to get a full penetration drill.

Sorry about the Dykem; I know it doesn't make for the best pics. I'm using it to keep a layout line, which can be seen in the last pic (on the baffle OD). I'm leaving some file marks where the adjacent pieces will mate and the weld will make them disappear. This will keep All the clips and ports aligned, with the blast ports offset 11.25deg.

I received a lot of IMs, from people requesting dimensions and such. I don't mind divulging this info, but, please, give me a chance to get these parts made. After which, I'll post "As Built" drawings.

On another note, here's an update of my Spindle. It works fantastic; much better than my old setup. You can see the orange pc fan I had to rig up to help keep temps down (dis sum bitch gets HOT :lol: ). The spindle is water cooled, but I didn't get any tubing to connect it to my pump. This will be remedied soon.

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No, that is not some new anodizing process, which makes Al have a wood finish, the indexing plate is made of Luan/Plywood. I haven't gotten around to making a real plate and this was serving as a template. It works phenomenal. Is it making me think twice about one made of metal? Yes! They're too easy to make and I'll see how it's held-up after 36 port holes, 3 angle changes per baffle clip, and cutting the muzzle device. My other lathe is scheduled to depart next week (was SPF before I even posted to Craigslist). So I'll be looking to get a mill and might just wait to make my plates. If anyone is curious, I'm in-between a G0704 and the LMS 3909. I know the G0704 is a bit "better", but costs $400 more than the 3909 and would need another $400 to upgrade to the belt drive. I figure I don't need a mill for heavy purposes and the $800 might serve better going towards a vise, clamps, cutters, etc.

Anyway, thanks for staying tuned and, if the weekend cooperates, I should have an update on finished parts soon.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Update 9/2/2017<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Parts were finished, cleaned, baked, degreased, and are now ready for welding. I went with 8 ports in the blast baffle, instead of the planned 6. I was going to put a 1/4" hole in the MB, 90deg from the 5/16" slit. Once I saw the slit, I figured it was open enough and the bit of extra material would be good for the 10"bbl.

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Down the stack. The hybrid clip looks promising and was easy to cut. Although rusty recommends a slotting saw, for the flats, I used a 3/8" end mill. Takes longer than a traditional clip or scoop, but realistically was about 4min/baffle. That includes the bit change and indexing.

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I'm putting a little rig together for welding. Once that's done, I should be good to weld.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Update 10/6/2017<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Got to welding the suppressor together today. Not sure I'm going to deal w/ heat treating (so anxious to shoot it :wink: ).

W/o further ado, welding porn :D

Test welds, to verify settings and penetration.
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Welding rig
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First couple welds
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Welding complete
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Wire wheel and approved stamp
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My scale has it coming in at 16.6oz
A video can be found here, of the welding process. Let me know if the video fails to load. Youtube was taking forever to process it.

I still would like to passivate post-weld, even if I don't heat treat.
Will be sand blasted and coated (when I get to it)
Last edited by T-Rex on Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:06 pm, edited 19 times in total.
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fishman
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by fishman »

I have two F1s pending and I plan to build them identical except one will have the half clip and one will have the dual hybrid clip. Im excited to see how yours turns out.
300 blackout form 1: http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=137293

5.56 form 1:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by cdakers »

Glad to see the sweat of Rusty's brow making a difference here also. He's an awesome gentleman, and has made some really beneficial findings and best of all, shared them. The DHC has made it much easier for the average Joe to produce a great sounding baffle. I know it has served me well.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by John A. »

Nice job getting that old lathe running again.

I have a question about rustys dual hybrid clips. Do they have enough noticeable advantage to be worth the time to mill them out?

I understand the principle of clipping and porting, I just curious how much better that can really be?
I don't care what your chart says
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by fishman »

John A. wrote:Nice job getting that old lathe running again.

I have a question about rustys dual hybrid clips. Do they have enough noticeable advantage to be worth the time to mill them out?

I understand the principle of clipping and porting, I just curious how much better that can really be?
Supposedly they sound a tiny bit better than a regular clip but they reduce POI shift a ton because they're symmetrical.
300 blackout form 1: http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=137293

5.56 form 1:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by John A. »

I've never experienced significant POI shift while using one of my silencers. I've heard some others mention it, and it's very prominent for a misaligned bore or baffle strikes or baffle kisses or for a heavy can on a pencil barrel or even on pistol cans that use a booster because of all that's going on when you pull the trigger.

But I don't see what it would hurt to do it that way, I was just curious if the extra machine time was worth it (point of diminishing return).
I don't care what your chart says
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by fishman »

John A. wrote:I've never experienced significant POI shift while using one of my silencers. I've heard some others mention it, and it's very prominent for a misaligned bore or baffle strikes or baffle kisses or for a heavy can on a pencil barrel or even on pistol cans that use a booster because of all that's going on when you pull the trigger.

But I don't see what it would hurt to do it that way, I was just curious if the extra machine time was worth it (point of diminishing return).
On a hunting rifle, like the two coyote guns my two next F1s are going on, a 2" shift at 100 yards is very significant, especially if you're going to shoot at 200+ yards and if you'd like your zero to be the same with and without the silencer.
300 blackout form 1: http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=137293

5.56 form 1:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by John A. »

Yes it would be. I don't get the opportunity to ever shoot that far. My terrain and surroundings barely allow 100 yard shots. And most of my hunting is done within 50 or less.

Please keep me posted how the rusty clips work out for you.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by Sergeant »

John,
I built 2 identical cans, one with single clips save the first and last baffle, and one with all DHC. On testing I asked my wife which sounded quieter, if any. She said after the first shot the DHC can was noticeably quieter. After reviewing the video I agree. Not earth shattering but noticeable.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by John A. »

Thank you for the reply Sergeant.

Do you mind if I ask what caliber you're shooting this through?

I'm trying to determine if they would sound better in a higher pressure (rifle) or a lower pressure (pistol cal) or work equally well for either.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by Sergeant »

5.56 20 inch bbl. AR
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by T-Rex »

There's several videos of Rusty testing/metering his design against known suppressors. He doesn't use Mil STD testing procedures, so don't mention it, but the variables and conditions are the same for each sample. He shows how a slightly larger bore (than the standard .06" over) actually increases performance at least w/ his design. Also, he bores even .223 cans per 30cal specs and shows they perform better this way. It's all his data, but he's pretty forthcoming w/ it.

Anyway, I don't see my design being a dud. It's relatively the size of most 5.56mm cans and uses tested and proven features. Now, if I can get my butt moving :wink:


Yes, Rusty seem to be a genuinely nice guy. I pretty much scaled everything from internet pics and, then, conferred w/ him regarding my intended plans. One recommendation, if you try and message him, be brief and to the point. He seems to be be busy, but it doesn't stop him from replying.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by Sergeant »

The first can is a typical 9", 1.5 I'D with 8 cones, single clipped as described above. The second is an 8" , overbored with DHC. Listen to the 2nd and 3rd shots out of the 2nd can and see what you think.
https://youtu.be/vEoiZ18lJN8
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by Historian »

T-Rex, incapable of expressing my admiration while beaming at your
wonderfully reclaiming SB9 American Iron and then, to top it off, the way you
used it to produce enviable results.

When HPA passes a restored 618 with among other improvements ER40
collet set will be 'Christened' ( but not by smashing a last bottle of
1990 Veuve Clicquot Ponsardin La Grande Dame Brut of course on the ways :) )
producing an experimental design sketched long ago. Has 1967 pass so quickly?


Again, thank you for showing and inspiring us with your talent.


Best.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by Historian »

Remembered a bookmark I had on restoring the SB9A
that shows the craftsmanship required in restoring
a beautiful piece of American iron and history.

<< https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 148/page1/ >>

Bravo again T-Rex.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by T-Rex »

@Historian
Thank you for your approbation. Few of us appreciate the quality that American factories used to produce.

I have that exact bookmark and rebuild kit. It comes with plenty of wick and a 4 star breakdown & rebuild. A few items/notations were out of place and/or missing, but they did a good job. Especially, considering the number of years and revisions this lathe went through.

The lathe came with so many accessories. Really, the only thing I need is more AXA tool holders.

Unfortunately, now I have to look at parting ways with my Craftsman 101 (as in sell, not destroy :wink: )
I need to make room for and start looking into a bench mill. Not sure if I'm going to settle for an X2 Mini or something a hair bigger.

I'll keep this build updated so stay tuned! :)
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by sizulku »

T-Rex, do you mind to share your baffle pictures after ported?
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by T-Rex »

sizulku wrote:T-Rex, do you mind to share your baffle pictures after ported?
Sizulku
Great to see you around and still keeping tabs on us :wink:

I won't be hiding anything from this build. I can't promise to take a pic of everything, but the finished baffles will be posted.

I'll update everything to the OP and put the latest update's date in the post title.

Good to hear from you and take care :)
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing

Post by sizulku »

T-Rex wrote: Sizulku
Great to see you around and still keeping tabs on us :wink:

I won't be hiding anything from this build. I can't promise to take a pic of everything, but the finished baffles will be posted.

I'll update everything to the OP and put the latest update's date in the post title.

Good to hear from you and take care :)
T-Rex, Thank you for your kind word. Yes, I'm in-and-out this forum to find out how to build a good silencer.

What is your bore size and baffles spacing?
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 8/19/2017

Post by T-Rex »

While I'd normally use a 17/64 drill, this time I went with a letter "N".
There's about .05" offset from bore OD to where I truncated the cone.
Don't have the drawing in front of me, but spacing is close to .4". I can post "As Builts", if anyone is interested.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 8/19/2017

Post by fishman »

T-Rex wrote:I can post "As Builts", if anyone is interested.
Yes please
300 blackout form 1: http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=137293

5.56 form 1:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 9/1/2017

Post by T-Rex »

Update in OP
Last edited by T-Rex on Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 9/1/2017

Post by T-Rex »

Update in OP
Completed Builds www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79895
Burst Calculator www.engineersedge.com/calculators/pipe_bust_calc.htm
Silencer Porn www.instagram.com/explore/tags/silencerporn/
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 9/1/2017

Post by sizulku »

T-Rex, thank you for the updates but why you ported all your baffles?
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Re: 5.56mm Sealed Can Build - Ongoing - UPDATE 9/2/2017

Post by T-Rex »

SDN-6, Socom, M4-2k
All Top performing designs and all employ baffle ports

Sig SRD baffles
Image
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