What has to be done to modify a baffle for someone's form 1?

[frijoli]

I have not had this question come up before, and wasn't even sure how to search for it.

I have a customer who is making a Form 1 can. He wants me to drill some baffles for him because he doesn't have all the necessary tools.
I am an 07/02.
Can I do this, and what paperwork would be necessary? He already has the stamp. If you can point me to the section of the NFA guide or where the law/rule is, that would be fine too.

Anyone?

Thanks for your assistance in advance.

Clay

[John A.]

1. NFA guide is mostly useless. It's not even an "official" publication. Never get legal advice from an unofficial source.

If in doubt, call and ask ATF.

2. If you have your manufacturer license, you can do work for him.

I may be wrong, but I don't even think any paperwork is required to drill a hole in a baffle since you're licensed to do that type of work.

Of course, you'd have to note the suppressor in your A&D log if you are going to have it overnight.

I don't know of anything else you would need to do.

But I am not a manufacturer.

[frijoli]

1. NFA guide is mostly useless. It's not even an "official" publication. Never get legal advice from an unofficial source.

If in doubt, call and ask ATF.

I did. They said they weren't sure, but would get back to me. In all fairness, it was an IOI, not the legal department.

[ECCO Machine]

I have not had this question come up before, and wasn't even sure how to search for it.

I have a customer who is making a Form 1 can. He wants me to drill some baffles for him because he doesn't have all the necessary tools.
I am an 07/02.
Can I do this, and what paperwork would be necessary? He already has the stamp. If you can point me to the section of the NFA guide or where the law/rule is, that would be fine too.

Anyone?

Thanks for your assistance in advance.

Clay

No. If you drill the holes, you're the manufacturer, must serialize and transfer to him on form 4.

You may repair it for him if he damages it, including making replacement parts (except the tube), but you cannot manufacture the original parts for him. Turning "solvent trap parts" into baffles is manufacturing, same as finishing 80% receivers.

Your friend needs to go buy a drill press and vise.

[T-Rex]

This topic has been discussed here ad nauseam.
Not sure if it's considered a repair, or what, but there are many shops that already offer this service.

[doubloon]

I believe it's what those two said.

A baffle isn't a "baffle" until it's complete and it isn't "complete" until it's registered. You can't "modify" something that doesn't exist, you can only "make" or "manufacture".

Modifying a "thing" to make it a baffle is "manufacturing" if you're properly licensed, it's "making" if you are an individual registered on a Form 1 and illegal in the land of the "free" (U.S.A) if you're not a "manufacturer" or a "maker".

As best as I can remember from the previous ad nauseum discussions.

If the Form 1 silencer doesn't exist yet (isn't registered) and someone other than the registered Form 1 "maker" completes a part for the silencer that doesn't exist yet then that part would needed to be "transfered" to the "maker" as a new silencer, because every part of a silencer is a silencer says the ATF, and taxes must be paid.

If the "someone" who completes the part for the unregistered silencer is not the Form 1 "maker" or properly licensed then, AFAIK, there are no amount of taxes or forms available to make this legal.

If an existing Form 1 silencer (is registered) needs work and someone other than the registered Form 1 "maker" performs work on that silencer then the someone needs to be properly licensed and the ATF "strongly recommends" filing a Form 5 to make sure it doesn't look like a "transfer".

But, as has been previously stated, the ATF Handbook is not an "official" interpretation of law, ATF rulings change like the weather and any advice you get off the interwebs for free is often worth less than you paid for it so the opinion of qualified legal counsel should be sought in any matter that has the potential to land your or your accomplice in the crowbar hotel.

[John A.]

I was under the impression that the baffles were already made, and a hole drilled. Just needed the OP to enlarge them to ensure concentricity.

If they have not been made, I would echo ecco's statement.

[T-Rex]

Pulled from some threads:

A Form 1 permits you to manufacture a suppressor yourself. If you outsource it to a company with a SOT, you'd be doing a Form 4 transfer.

Absolutely incorrect.
A Form4 is a transfer of ownership nothing more, so long as the SOT is an 07/02 you need not be present and they can do the work for you, you are subcontracting the work to them, not transferring legal ownership to that SOT.
-B

This is absolutely correct DELTA, so long as the creator of the parts is a non licensee. If they are an 07/02(must be both) then you can leave your parts along with a copy of your approved F1 and ask when you can pick them up.
-B

Rusty, over on the From1 boards, is one of the SOT's who offers this service. Link

[fishman]

Its my understanding that a 07/02 can take a completed form 1 silencer (endcaps and a tube) and make baffles for it and return it. If the customer supplies cups to turn into baffles its no different than if he supplied a solid bar to turn into baffles.

[doubloon]

Pulled from some threads:
...
Rusty, over on the From1 boards, is one of the SOT's who offers this service. Link

Interesting, the link gave me a 503 error the first time, now it just tells me I don't have permission to access the thread ... membership required?

Everything on the Form 1 says the "maker" must do this and the "maker" must to that and the applicant is the "maker".

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-n ... 6/download

The approval of the Form 1 application authorizes the applicant to make the firearm. The approval does not authorize the applicant to convey or ship the firearm to another person to manufacture the NFA firearm. If another person will manufacture the NFA firearm, the other person would be the maker and the application must be submitted by that person. Subsequent to the making, the firearm could then be transferred, subsequent to an approved Form 4 application, to the person who wanted the modification to be made.

[T-Rex]

Interesting

Yes, you must be a member to view the Form1 boards. Honestly, I would have thought most here joined, seeing the availability of pertinent knowledge.

You must understand that the ATF is in control, and not the forms they release

A Form 1 also states "The registrant shall notify....of any change to the description of the firearm in item 4". Yet, we all know this isn't enforceable by law and isn't what the ATF says has to happen, just what they would like so the registry remains accurate.

If Bender solicits this service and tells everyone it's good to go, that's enough for me. That guy knows his ATF/NFA sh*t.

[fishman]

You must understand that the LAW is in control, and not the forms [the ATF] release[s]

[doubloon]

...
If Bender solicits this service and tells everyone it's good to go, ...

Which service?

Modifying someones registered Form 1 suppressor or making Form 1 suppressor for someone in part or in whole before it's registered or both?

[frijoli]

This topic has been discussed here ad nauseam.
Not sure if it's considered a repair, or what, but there are many shops that already offer this service.

It may have been discussed and that is what I thought, but ad nauseam doesn't get the results I was hoping for, nor did any of the other terms.
Thanks though.

[T-Rex]

Which service?
Modifying someones registered Form 1 suppressor or making Form 1 suppressor for someone in part or in whole before it's registered or both?

Like I said, I'm not sure what he classifies it as, a repair or manufacture, but he's stated many times that he can facilitate someone in this situation.

I'd think it best for him to be the one outlining the service he provides

It may have been discussed and that is what I thought, but ad nauseam doesn't get the results I was hoping for, nor did any of the other terms.
Thanks though.

Not sure of your disposition.
I answered you're question, gave you several examples, and commented how it's an extremely common discussion.

[doubloon]

...
Like I said, I'm not sure what he classifies it as, a repair or manufacture, but he's stated many times that he can facilitate someone in this situation.

I'd think it best for him to be the one outlining the service he provides
...

ETA: Me, personally, IDGAF if anybody silences all the things with pop bottles and duct tape, just looking for published references wrt the question. I also still don't know for sure if the item in the original question is completed and registered or incomplete and unregistered.

I'm not trying to speak for him and I'm not saying you're wrong, just trying to provide a source and interpretation of the available information for the OP.

The way I read the information available with regard to repairs is a properly licensed individual can legally perform repairs on a completed (stamp, registered, serial numbered) suppressor and no transfers are required but a Form 5 is highly recommended. Replacing or modifying an existing part of a completed suppressor, like a baffle, by a license holder is OK but even so some manufacturers will refuse to "repair" a completed suppressor by replacing baffle that is missing. If the item isn't complete (no stamp, unregistered, no serial number) filing a Form 5 isn't possible and, it seems to follow, the work done would be making or manufacturing and not repairing.

When it comes to the making a suppressor or it's parts under a Form 1 the available information would seem to indicate the "maker" is the "applicant" and if anyone other than the applicant makes a part it's a violation. According to the available documentation, any new part of a suppressor, like a baffle, is a new suppressor and anything "new" is supposed to be serialized and transferred if provided to an unlicensed individual and the available documentation seems to make it clear holding a Form 1 is not the same as holding a license to manufacture.

I was just looking for a stronger reference other than a thread in a forum that goes something like "I know a dude who knows a dude that has a license and he says it's OK. ". I respect your opinions, just looking for a source ... trust but verify.

I don't want to fall back on "their ain't no law because what the ATF publishes is not law". I agree, ATF publications are not the same as law passed by a legislative branch of government but the ATF is a regulatory agency granted the authority to "regulate" the making, transfer and possession of NFA items like suppressors within the law. Yes, nobody can force anyone to notify the ATF and nobody can force anyone to fill out a 5320 so if you take your MG across a state line to Knob Creek and make it home without anybody who cares finding out then there is no victim. It means you were successful but not necessarily "right".

Based on all that, I have not been able to find any reference legal, regulatory or otherwise that would indicate there is a documented and legal way for a Form 1 "maker" to allow someone else to "make" or "manufacture" suppressors for him in part or in whole. It may be out there, I just haven't seen it.

One gray area.

If a unlicensed guy has the machinery and ability to make a Form 1 suppressor for an applicant while the applicant waits. How many times can the unlicensed guy do that and for how many applicants before the unlicensed guy becomes a "manufacturer" for purposes of prosecution? If the unlicensed guy accepts payment or something in trade for his work or wear on his machinery does that change the number of times or applicants allowed?

Another gray area.

If a licensed guy makes a custom suppressor for and unlicensed customer, without a Form 1, to the specifications of the customer (length, diameter, baffle design, whatever) then the licensed guy is manufacturing a suppressor and must transfer it on a Form 4 to the customer.

If a customer has a Form 1 and contracts a licensed guy to make the suppressor to his specifications is this considered manufacturing under the terms of the license and is the licensed guy obliged to put his stamp on it? There may be something somewhere that says a Form 1 holder can contract out the making of a suppressor but I haven't seen it. Most of the documentation I have seen that covers the contracting of suppressors or suppressor parts is between two license holders but even the transfer of parts between licensed manufacturers requires some kind of documentation as far as I know.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not intending to argue with you, just looking for documentation that makes some of these areas less gray.

[T-Rex]

I'm not intending to argue with you

I know you're not. We're all well aware how muddy the ATF waters can be.

What must be understood is that a lot of the ATF/NFA scenarios aren't written into law and must be taken by what the ATF has interpreted and/or put out.

This is what the handbook is for. Yes, it outright states it's not a law book and that's because it isn't. It's the ATF's way of saying "Hey, do it this way and you won't get jammed-up".

Bender was always in first-hand contact w/ the ATF and tried his best to keep us up to snuff on the legals. I'm going to listen to what he says long before anyone else, unless of course it's the ATF Tech Branch

Knowing there are several SOT's that perform this task, while it's so widely publicized on the internet, make it all the more believable that it's legal. Not always 100%, but I'd think the ATF would have stepped in, at least by now.

One gray area.

If a unlicensed guy has the machinery and ability to make a Form 1 suppressor for an applicant while the applicant waits. How many times can the unlicensed guy do that and for how many applicants before the unlicensed guy becomes a "manufacturer" for purposes of prosecution? If the unlicensed guy accepts payment or something in trade for his work or wear on his machinery does that change the number of times or applicants allowed?
Not sure if any of this can be governed by Rule 2015-1, as it is directed at frames & receivers, but it specifically states "i.e., a firearm" (to which a silencer is).
If so, than the unlicensed guy is "engaged in the business" of manufacturing firearms and would need to be licensed.
If not, than the NFA Handbook says it's ok, per this quote:
"If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm,
the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a
premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done
under the direct oversight of the applicant"
ATF is always in control so it can change anytime, but this is the information available.

Another gray area.

If a licensed guy makes a custom suppressor for and unlicensed customer, without a Form 1, to the specifications of the customer (length, diameter, baffle design, whatever) then the licensed guy is manufacturing a suppressor and must transfer it on a Form 4 to the customer. No grey area

If a customer has a Form 1 and contracts a licensed guy to make the suppressor to his specifications is this considered manufacturing under the terms of the license and is the licensed guy obliged to put his stamp on it? There may be something somewhere that says a Form 1 holder can contract out the making of a suppressor but I haven't seen it.
The SOT would need to be the maker and have their credentials engraved on the silencer. See above.
Hence, why I believe the SOTs constitute it as a repair and not a manufacture/make

[doubloon]

...
Not sure if any of this can be governed by Rule 2015-1, as it is directed at frames & receivers, but it specifically states "i.e., a firearm" (to which a silencer is).
If so, than the unlicensed guy is "engaged in the business" of manufacturing firearms and would need to be licensed.
If not, than the NFA Handbook says it's ok, per this quote:
"If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm,
the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a
premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done
under the direct oversight of the applicant"
ATF is always in control so it can change anytime, but this is the information available.

Another gray area.

If a licensed guy makes a custom suppressor for and unlicensed customer, without a Form 1, to the specifications of the customer (length, diameter, baffle design, whatever) then the licensed guy is manufacturing a suppressor and must transfer it on a Form 4 to the customer. No grey area

If a customer has a Form 1 and contracts a licensed guy to make the suppressor to his specifications is this considered manufacturing under the terms of the license and is the licensed guy obliged to put his stamp on it? There may be something somewhere that says a Form 1 holder can contract out the making of a suppressor but I haven't seen it.
The SOT would need to be the maker and have their credentials engraved on the silencer. See above.
Hence, why I believe the SOTs constitute it as a repair and not a manufacture/make

[/quote]
Excellent, I've browsed that handbook maybe twice but still missed that part.

[frijoli]

This turned into an interesting thread.
It thoroughly explains why I wasn't clear on the answer. lol

Clay

[doubloon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn60YWO ... u.be&t=120