How many silencers can I make as I do R&D?

[ronjes100]

I am exploring the process of licensing to own (actually make) a silencer. I am a manufacturing and design engineer by vocation. This is something that I want to do simply because I like to design and make things that are interesting and a challenge. Its a hobby.
That being said, I would want to make several designs over a period of time and test and evaluate them. I would be using 22LR and doing the testing in my basement using a test chamber.
So my question is if this is possible with just one ATF application?
Can I have several designs on hand? Or do I have to destroy a design before I start a new one?
Seriously, I don't want to get on the wrong side of the law on this just because I like to make things

[John A.]

If you go through the process and get your manufacturing license, you can make as many as you want.

If you do it on a form 1, that is a 1 shot deal. You can't R&D, you can't make replacements, or anything of the sort.

[ronjes100]

You answered my question.
I better not have more than one on hand at any given time.

[doubloon]

You answered my question.
I better not have more than one on hand at any given time.

Not exactly what he said but as long as you're thinking that way no extra baffles/parts or unserialized tubes.

[ronjes100]

So I have to think that it is a given that people make mistakes. You get a license for a “one time make a silencer” and you drill a hole wrong, or dent your tube, or cross thread something, or you get all done and it just plain does not work.

Are you supposed to serialize the scrap item(s) and re-apply? I doubt that is the intent. People mess up their projects all the time.

So I figure if I keep messing up and destroying my scrap parts I should be o.k.

And what exactly is a silencer tube? I already have various ferrous and non-ferrous threaded tubes and end caps around my shop from past laser and camera projects.

Is there a period of time from when I get my license to when I have to produce a working finished product?

[John A.]

You asked a question, and you got an answer.

Don't like the answer that I gave you, call this number and ask them (304) 616-4300

Maybe they'll give you an answer that you do like

While you're on the phone with them, ask them if you can do R&D and remake your baffles if you don't like how they sound and make different ones. That's how I read what you're saying in the last post.

[ronjes100]

I was looking for discussion and answers from many people. That is function of a “forum”.
Hope fully you are not implying that you are the definitive and final source on this subject?
That would defeat the purpose of a forum.
And yes. I reserve the right to question any answer I receive, or look for additional or correcting information because no single person is always right.
I am doing research. This phase is usually time consuming to gather facts from many different sources and forums. Are you suggesting I do no further research since I have found you?

[John A.]

Regardless of what I, or anyone else on the forum "thinks" or "says", is irrelevant.

You want the "right" answer to your questions?

Pick up the phone and call and ask the atf the same questions you asked here. You have their number.

Your comments about continuing to mess up your baffles and remaking them (wink wink) is not helping you any.

Call tech branch and ask them whatever questions you want to.

[T-Rex]

What's being conveyed is this:
An ATF from1 allows you to "make" a silencer. Just one.
No, you're not allowed to say, "this isn't that great" and make alternate components to increase performance.
You may, however, remove material from the made components to increase performance, ie. clip baffles, etc.

If you read this as you "accidentally" messed-up and need to make all new baffles, well, that's incorrect and looking for trouble.
No, the ATF won't be spying into your home, but we're letting you know the side of the law that won't get you jammed-up.

No, your camera tubes aren't silencer parts, simply due to the definition of a silencer:
any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

This isn't exactly a blank statement, however. As the ATF would definitely come down on you for not having a serialized tube, if it were used as part of a silencer.

There is no time frame to complete a project, but what has always been conveyed is this:
If the ATF ever did visit you, for whatever reason, do you think they'll take your word that it's been 5yrs and you've yet to produce a serialized, NFA firearm? Just saying.

Now, there is an ATF/NFA clause which alloys you 3yrs to receive a refund on an unmade/unused tax stamp.


The R&D availability is there, but you'll need an FFL manufacturing license first. Typically, you'd need to pay ITAR ($2400/yr) and receive your SOT, but there exists verbiage which allows for R&D, w/o paying ITAR. Not exactly sure how to be granted or prove such. I believe if you go this route you'll need an LLC so once you stop paying your FFL license the LLC can keep possession of the NFA items. Not 100% exact on the last, but I'm pretty close.

[ronjes100]

Great answer.
Lots of good info.
Thanks so much!!

[garredondojr]

What's being conveyed is this:

but there exists verbiage which alloys for R&D, w/o paying ITAR. Not exactly sure how to be granted or prove such. I believe if you go this route you'll need an LLC so once you stop paying your FFL license the LLC can keep possession of the NFA items. Not 100% exact on the last, but I'm pretty close.

I looked into this once and from what I gathered is you can build to your hearts content without paying ITAR as long as you didn't sell anything. ie. say you made several dozen silencers, full auto guns, sbr's ect there all legal as long as you keep your ffl current and you never sell or perform services for anyone. The flip side of the coin is that when you decide you no longer want to maintain the FFL everything must be destroyed!

To the OP I'm not sure if I missed it but you can replace or re-do parts if you messed them up if and only if you have not finalized the build and fired a round through it. once that first bullet is sent though it, you can no longer change things aside from material removal like described above. A SOT can however make post build repairs for you.

[John A.]

The thing about FFL's (which manufacturing licenses are also grouped), you have to be in business.

They don't want to issue FFL's only for personal use.

Q:Can I get a Federal Firearms License for only personal usage?

A: No, the ATF will not issue an FFL for 100% personal usage.

You never sell anything, even if you continue paying the $500/$1000 licensing fee every year (tax amount depends on business income) they're going to start questioning things.

[fishman]

I was looking for discussion and answers from many people. That is function of a “forum”.
Hope fully you are not implying that you are the definitive and final source on this subject?

he's right

[T-Rex]

The thing about FFL's (which manufacturing licenses are also grouped), you have to be in business.
They don't want to issue FFL's only for personal use.

You are exempt from registration (per 22 CFR 122.1(b)(4)) if you're fabricating "solely for experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development".

The items would not be "for personal use". Their intention is for "experimental or scientific purposes".

FFL 07 is $150 Application fee and another $150 every 3yrs.


If this is a feasible avenue, you:
make and test designs
destroy everything once you're satisfied
apply for a form 1 with the best designs

Not saying it's the best use of time and money, but, if legal, it could be fun

[doubloon]

...
Not saying it's the best use of time and money, but, if legal, it could be fun

If I already had the equipment this would be a tempting route.

[John A.]

FFL 07 is $150 Application fee and another $150 every 3yrs.

Do they not also require an SOT? Which is $500 or $1000 a year depending on income associated with sales?

https://www.silencershop.com/blog/post/ ... s-3-form-3

Type 7 - This license allows the dealer to manufacture new firearms as well as selling or transferring existing firearms
Although an FFL will allow a person or business to become involved in the firearms business, it isn't enough if you want to deal with NFA weapons. NFA stands for the National Firearms Act, and covers full-auto weapons, short barrel rifles & shotguns, and suppressors. In order to get involved with selling or transferring NFA items, an existing FFL holder needs to also obtain an SOT. SOT stands for Special Occupational Tax, and is required in order to become involved in the selling or transferring of NFA items (like suppressors). (Once again, an individual can sell his personal NFA weapons to another individual in most states; but, they must complete the appropriate ATF transfer process.) As I already mentioned, there are two types of FFLs that impact us in this discussion: Type 1 & Type 7. The type of FFL that a person or business has when they apply for their SOT will impact the Class of SOT: •A Type 7 FFL will become a Class 2 SOT - which means they can manufacture, deal, or transfer either standard or NFA weapons
--------------

I would assume this also covers making and transferring to yourself. Otherwise, would they not be forced to be surrendered all items at the expiration of the license?--Or transfer to another SOT or LEO?

I am not a MFG, so it is a sincere question. There are some MFG's on the forum. I'm sure they could chime in with the particulars.

[T-Rex]

The SOT (ITAR reg) is what you'd be exempted from.
You'd still need the FFL07 to legally manufacture the firearms.

Not sure how to go about it or if it's truly worth it, but it's interesting.

[Capt. Link.]

I disagree with the content of this post.

If you are building a suppressor part and you build it to the wrong dimension you destroy that part and build a new part, that's legal.

If you build your suppressor and the baffles sucks you can't build new baffles.....but a FFL can.

You blow the end off the suppressor.Then decide to shorten it and destroy two baffles so extra parts are eliminated.This is also legal as long as the suppressor is not shorter than listed on the form one and no new parts are made.

You decide that a larger than listed caliber is desired so you bore out the baffles + end cap and retread the the other cap. Highly illegal to shoot a larger than listed caliber but the machine work is not!

Learn the definition of words used by BATFE before you read their laws.Read the whole dam book and understand that intent is 99% of the laws regulating title II builds and ownership.

If its not written its not illegal. 99.9% of letters to BATFE could be eliminated if people read the regulations and understood the meanings of the words used by them.A letter to one person may not apply to your situation.

I get a little miffed when people ask questions with the intent to get around the law.I also am mystified when people add content to laws that do not exist.

-CL

[garredondojr]

The SOT (ITAR reg) is what you'd be exempted from.
You'd still need the FFL07 to legally manufacture the firearms.

Not sure how to go about it or if it's truly worth it, but it's interesting.

When I looked into it I was under the understanding that you did still need to have the SOT to manufacture NFA items however you didn't need to pay for ITAR. SOT 2 is a $500 annual fee($1000 if the FFL makes over 500k a year) paid to the ATF in addition to the FFL. ITAR is it's own entity. The only way to be exempt is if the .gov requested your services.

You can still engage in normal FFL business without paying ITAR however you cannot sell your "manufactured" NFA items. I want to say you were able to give local law enforcement agencies samples for testing/feedback without ITAR involvement.

Another fee that was required although minimal was starting a LLC and you had to run your LLC info in the local paper twice.

[T-Rex]

Another fee that was required although minimal was starting a LLC and you had to run your LLC info in the local paper twice.

Interesting. Is this an ATF, CFR, or other requirement?

[garredondojr]

Another fee that was required although minimal was starting a LLC and you had to run your LLC info in the local paper twice.

Interesting. Is this an ATF, CFR, or other requirement?

ATF. It's more for personal protection/expansion capabilities. maybe not required. More so for the FFL to separate the business from the individual.

Section 5.2 Payment of special (occupational) tax to do business in NFA firearms.

5.2.1 Every “person” who engages in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in
firearms (including pawnbrokers) shall pay a special tax.

5.2.1.1 Definition of “person” for NFA purposes. For purposes of the NFA, “person” is
defined as a “partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural
person.”82 ATF recognizes the term to include a limited liability company (“LLC”) organized
under State law. Thus, an LLC engaged in an NFA firearms business must pay the NFA special
tax.

another note the feds do things based on a fiscal year so you can get jacked if you startup the wrong time of the year.

"The tax must be paid on or before the
date of commencing the taxable business and every year thereafter on or before July 1. The tax is not
prorated and is computed for the entire tax year (July 1 through June 30), regardless of the portion of the
year during which the taxpayer engages in business. Persons commencing business at any time after
July 1 in any year are liable for the tax for the entire tax year. "

[T-Rex]

.

I was aware of the tax payment info, just thought the advertisement part was hokey.

Reading more info I'm going to stand by my original disposition, in that an R&D FFL07 wouldn't need SOT for their work. The SOT, as everything reads, is solely for the 07 to sell/transfer NFA items w/o paying the NFA tax. This is what you're paying with your annual renewal.

Statements in the Handbook aren't always backed by any weight of the law and are usually just ATF "common practice" or interpretations. ATF doesn't supersede the CFR. If the CFR says an R&D element is exempt from paying registration tax (SOT) than I'm going to believe this can be done.

[garredondojr]

.

I was aware of the tax payment info, just thought the advertisement part was hokey.

Reading more info I'm going to stand by my original disposition, in that an R&D FFL07 wouldn't need SOT for their work. The SOT, as everything reads, is solely for the 07 to sell/transfer NFA items w/o paying the NFA tax. This is what you're paying with your annual renewal.

Statements in the Handbook aren't always backed by any weight of the law and are usually just ATF "common practice" or interpretations. ATF doesn't supersede the CFR. If the CFR says an R&D element is exempt from paying registration tax (SOT) than I'm going to believe this can be done.

appears the LLC thing may just be the law in my state.

"Every LLC formed in Arizona is required to notify the public of its formation by publishing an ad in one newspaper for 3 consecutive publications."

Hmm well you have definitely peaked my interest again if you truly do not have to have the SOT to perform R&D I could definitely benefit from this. I have a half dozen or more designs i'd love to try and I could make them from less expensive materials(2024 and 4130) for testing purposes then fill out a form one and make it from Ti and/or 17-4.

[ECCO Machine]

Hmm well you have definitely peaked my interest again if you truly do not have to have the SOT to perform R&D I could definitely benefit from this. I have a half dozen or more designs i'd love to try and I could make them from less expensive materials(2024 and 4130) for testing purposes then fill out a form one and make it from Ti and/or 17-4.

You do have to pay SOT to manufacture NFA items, and ATF is not going to issue you a license to "R&D" a suppressor for personal use. They do send an agent out to interview FFL applicants, and those agents do verify that you intend to engage in the business of dealing and/or manufacturing firearms/ammunition. So you'd either be honest and almost certainly get denied, or you'd perjure yourself.

Suppressors shouldn't be regulated, but they are, and there are no legitimate work-arounds for manufacturing personal use NFA items without paying the $200 tax for each. Your best bet is to befriend an SOT who will either do the "R&D" for you, or add you to their license as a responsible party and allow you use of their facility for your purposes.