Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

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kutworksinc
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Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by kutworksinc » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:18 am

Hey guys, Waiting on my form 1 to come back sometime in the next couple months, just FYI

So until it comes back, I'm stuck in the CAD phase. While looking up baffle designs, and reading as much as possible, I think I have an idea for a baffle design, but have not seen anyone make anything similar.

I am a machinist professionally, I DO have a lathe, a CNC mill, and it has a CNC rotary index head.
If I suggest I CAN cut it, rest assured I have modeled the toolpaths necessary to check to see if its possible.

So, on to the baffle design. Imagine a can, with stacked baffles, not monocore.
Each baffle being .75" thick. Each disk would be flat on one side, and instead of a bowl shape like a "freeze plug" style baffle, there would be a spiral, starting at the bore hole for the bullet, expanding outward towards the tube.

Using this design, each baffle will have about a .1875 wide path, almost 4.5" long, curled up around the bore hole. Also, the path could have small serrations, like a knife, facing the away from the tube, so when the gas starts to flow out and depressurize, there will buy hundreds of tiny pockets slowing it down.

I would attach a pic of the drawing, and a rendering to show exactly how its cut, but I cant see how to attach.

Any pros have any input?


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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Nay....spiral designs of all sorts have been tried over the years without success.A good baffle will strip HP gas away from the bore line and retard its continued flow forward to the next baffle.
-CL
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by ECCO Machine » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:03 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:Nay....spiral designs of all sorts have been tried over the years without success.A good baffle will strip HP gas away from the bore line and retard its continued flow forward to the next baffle.
-CL
Agreed. There's merit in using a helix in certain applications and in very specific ways, but tight coils or attempting to direct the gas into a spiral perpendicular to the laminar flow has been tried with less than stellar results.
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kutworksinc
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by kutworksinc » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:24 pm

Wow. I'm honestly a little surprised....lol
I couldn't really find any info about the topic, I was hoping to be innovative. Oh well.

Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by ECCO Machine » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:26 pm

kutworksinc wrote: I was hoping to be innovative. Oh well.
There are a lot of players in the game with lots of money to throw at R&D, and the basic technology has been around for over a century. The name of the game these days is chasing a few Bels (as in 1/10s of dBs) and minimizing weight while making them tough enough for a paratrooper to empty an entire belt of ammunition through them and then drop the thing while still 100 ft off the ground, pick it up after landing and go save the day.
kutworksinc wrote: Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
Books, eh, not much. But you have the cumulative knowledge of this board and others. Try searching what you want to know here and elsewhere, and if you can't find your answer, make a thread about it!
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by doubloon » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:43 pm

kutworksinc wrote:...
Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
People seem to like Paulson's books try looking at The Alan C. Paulson book Silencer History And Performance Vol.2

Other people may chime in with some other books they remember.

Other than that look at the link to Wicked's completed Form 1 thread in my signature and you'll find a lot of detailed info on various designs, I'm sure there's a spiral in there somewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by John A. » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:06 pm

There are no stupid questions.

Of course, if you do think of one, I'm sure someone here will tell you it is. :lol:

Seriously, don't be afraid to ask a question here. You may get varying answers, but no one will make fun of you for it. You'd be surprised how many times someone thought they were asking a stupid question and it lead to really nice breakthroughs.

I always wanted to try something similar to what you're doing but basically would be more like a suppressor within a suppressor.

Basically the inner suppressor would be stacked baffles like most "normal suppressors" while the outer suppressor sleeve would be ported from the expansion chamber into a channel that was shaped like a large fat course thread screw so the gas would make a cork screw path around the outer tube. Every so often, there would be ports that would direct some of that gas back into the inner suppressor and across the flow near the bore that would kind of block some of the inner gas from having a direct path through the bore.

But, sigh.

See, I'm sure someone will come along shortly and tell me how stupid of an idea that is.
I don't care what your chart says

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by T-Rex » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:45 pm

There are patents from the very early 1900's, for silencers, which employ some form of spiral geometry. Tons of Russian designs have explored this avenue as well. The science is sound. It just happens to work much better with lower pressure continuous flows rather than hi-pressure impulse.

Id say the most recent design would be by OSS.

Reading through Wicked's compilation should be of great benefit.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Historian » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:36 am

kutworksinc wrote:Wow. I'm honestly a little surprised....lol
I couldn't really find any info about the topic, I was hoping to be innovative. Oh well.

Is there a book I can read or something? So I don't end up asking 500 stupid questions?
As a famous physicist who worked on the Manhattan Project said
in 1956 physics course:

"There are no stupid questions. Only (stupid)
limited minds that ridicule the mechanism for discovering of new approaches"
. -
Victor "Viki" F. Weisskopf MIT.


"After World War II, Weisskopf joined the physics faculty at MIT, ultimately becoming head of the department.
At MIT, he encouraged students to ask questions, and, even in undergraduate physics courses,
taught his students to think like physicists, not just to learn physics. He was a memorable teacher."

Unique design: Paulson, et al* p. 268 X-Ray of South African Silencer.
Like rare Parker Hale MM1 with just an internal snorkel in empty tube.

Books:

"Silencers - Principles and Evaluations" Department of the Army
Frankford Arsenal Report R-1896 Aug 1968

*"Silencer - History & Performance Vol 2 " Pausdon, Parker, Koklas
Palidan Press 2002

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by jreinke » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:54 am

Unfortunately, when Paladin Press went belly up, so did the availability of both of Al Paulson's two books as well as the silencer patent book by N.R. Parker.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Historian » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:59 pm

jreinke wrote:Unfortunately, when Paladin Press went belly up, so did the availability of both of Al Paulson's two books as well as the silencer patent book by N.R. Parker.

What dispiriting news!

Thank you for update.

Maybe Alibris used book finder might have
some copies.


Drat.

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Historian » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:04 pm

<< https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?keyw ... &hs=Submit >>

The three silencer books by Paulson seem to have almost tripled in value.

The for Dover edition to be created.

"On June 5, 2017, Peder Lund died suddenly while on vacation in Finland,
and it was decided to close Paladin Press, with no new orders being accepted,
and existing orders being honored until 31 January, 2018.
[6][13][5]" - WIKI

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by doubloon » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:08 pm

jreinke wrote:Unfortunately, when Paladin Press went belly up, so did the availability of both of Al Paulson's two books as well as the silencer patent book by N.R. Parker.
Yeah, that happened a while back but I think some of their more notable publications can be found on the interwebs with some effort.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by ctm » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:43 pm

Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.

This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
Image

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:52 pm

ctm wrote:Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.

This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
Image
I've made the baffles patented by Greg Latka and that is not one of them.I have made variations based upon his baffle design including spacers made with a screw exterior but have not coupled them with a frustoconical cone.Building his helical free flow baffles on manual machines is a very labor intensive project and I hope to re-visit my hybrid design when the HPA passes
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 9512-1.png


Another inventor used Archimedes screw with success but never made them commercially.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_screw)
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by ECCO Machine » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:45 pm

ctm wrote:Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.

This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
Image
A flow analysis might prove otherwise, but I'm going with that helix is far too tight to act as anything other than a wall with the high pressure, high velocity gasses in a firearm suppressor and the extremely limited window to channel them. IMO, that space is better used inside the cone & skirt or as a coaxial chamber.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:15 pm

Greg has used this to build a coaxial design.Others have used it but did not patent it....
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8991551B2/en
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by T-Rex » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:48 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:.
CL, did you ever get to hear it while employing the perforated outer tube?
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by CThomas » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:45 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
ctm wrote:Not up on the latest greatest baffle designs but this was perhaps one of the only commercially successful spiral baffle designs that I know of. It was created by Greg at GSL Technology (part of Gemtech back in the day). It was invented back in the 80's.

This was a baffle that was talked about but never seen back in the day.
Image
I've made the baffles patented by Greg Latka and that is not one of them.I have made variations based upon his baffle design including spacers made with a screw exterior but have not coupled them with a frustoconical cone.Building his helical free flow baffles on manual machines is a very labor intensive project and I hope to re-visit my hybrid design when the HPA passes
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 9512-1.png


Another inventor used Archimedes screw with success but never made them commercially.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_screw)
Are you saying that the baffle in the picture is not one made by Greg? If so, I would find that odd because the picture stems from an interview that Greg did with the Firearm blog in his factory and it was labeled as the hexical.

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:55 am

CThomas wrote: Are you saying that the baffle in the picture is not one made by Greg? If so, I would find that odd because the picture stems from an interview that Greg did with the Firearm blog in his factory and it was labeled as the hexical.
Capt. Link. wrote:Greg has used this to build a coaxial design.Others have used it but did not patent it....
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8991551B2/en
This design was patented in 2014 not the 1980s and his first patents dealing with helical baffles starts in the 1990's.

T-rex I have never heard his new patent though it appears to be similar to what was called a Honey Hole in practice.
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by CThomas » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:04 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:
CThomas wrote: Are you saying that the baffle in the picture is not one made by Greg? If so, I would find that odd because the picture stems from an interview that Greg did with the Firearm blog in his factory and it was labeled as the hexical.
Capt. Link. wrote:Greg has used this to build a coaxial design.Others have used it but did not patent it....
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8991551B2/en
This design was patented in 2014 not the 1980s and his first patents dealing with helical baffles starts in the 1990's.

T-rex I have never heard his new patent though it appears to be similar to what was called a Honey Hole in practice.
It was not said that it was patented in the 80's just that it was invented back in the 80's and that comes directly from Greg's mouth. Greg himself says that the helical (spiral) design was in fact patented in the 90's. You are getting caught up in variations of the helical as it evolved. For the purpose of this thread the reference to the baffle seems simply to be about the spiral design and not ports, variations etc because that is what the OP of the thread was inquiring about although he was referencing an internal spiral.

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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by T-Rex » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:33 pm

As I said earlier, there are many spiral designs over the 100+ years of silencer manufacturing. It's also a proven concept for muffling engine and fan exhausts.

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Circa 1908
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1919
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Re: Spiral Baffle Design....yay or nay?

Post by Historian » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:40 pm

T-Rex et al, thank you for the wonderful eye candy you presented.
Just the right infusion of hope that HPA will pass soon.

We all should give a standing Shout Out of thanks to Sen Mitch McConnel
for the successes he has navigated. Perhaps if we beseech him
loudly enough he will pass HPA during the upcoming Lame-Duck
session and add to his endearment from 'we despicables'.

Attach it to a major bill at the last minute ... we should have learned something from the
past 'hide the salami' way the DemoNrats* have passed things. :) :)


* Thank you Judge Jeanine Pirro on FOX.

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