WTH is up with nfa branch?

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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John A.
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WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:40 am

I got a *delay* letter this morning telling me that I need to make corrections on my F1.

It's a F1 silencer.

There are no mistakes on the form. I'm going to call them Monday, but damn?

Image

1. It is not being made from a pre-existing receiver or manufacturer. So, I listed my name/address. That's how it's been done on all my other forms since I am the manufacturer.

2. It is not being made from an 80% receiver. I can draw them a sketch of a long rectangle. As I'm sure you're aware, it's starting out as a piece of raw pipe/tubing.

3. The serial number and model was listed exactly as it was going to be engraved. I'm sure the model name is not going to be in their database of drop down selections.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by fishman » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:35 am

WTH is up with the NFA branch.
That branch has been messed up since roughly 1934

Seriously though, Tell them exactly what you said here. I had a form returned for a correction. They said they needed my beneficiary's fingerprints and responsible person questionnaire. I wrote back saying "[no, they aren't an RP]", and they approved it.
Last edited by fishman on Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:55 am

Yeah, they even used a highlighter and highlighted the model name and serial number that I had written down on the dang forms. And in #3 correction said: "The serial number and model should be engraved exactly as it is listed".

Well, no sh!t captain obvious. That's exactly what I planned to do and why I wrote and spelled it on the form exactly the way I did. :roll:
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by 1rflman » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:03 pm

John A. wrote:I got a *delay* letter this morning telling me that I need to make corrections on my F1.

It's a F1 silencer.

There are no mistakes on the form. I'm going to call them Monday, but damn?

Image

1. It is not being made from a pre-existing receiver or manufacturer. So, I listed my name/address. That's how it's been done on all my other forms since I am the manufacturer.

2. It is not being made from an 80% receiver. I can draw them a sketch of a long rectangle. As I'm sure you're aware, it's starting out as a piece of raw pipe/tubing.

3. The serial number and model was listed exactly as it was going to be engraved. I'm sure the model name is not going to be in their database of drop down selections.
1. You are not the manufacturer, you are the "maker". On the Form 1 application, you would enter FM1 on that line.

2. Entering the correct info on line 1, this will not be required.

3. This will be accepted as you entered it because of line 1.

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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:53 pm

This was a paper form1. Not E-form.

I've always put my info down on 4A when making a silencer. Never a problem before.

Now, as to the model number and serial number I have listed on the form, how is that wrong too?
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by poikilotrm » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:16 pm

OP, they are doing that to slow their workload.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:20 pm

No doubt. Pisses me off though. There are no errors on my paperwork. I'm calling them Monday morning.

instructions:
j. Description of Firearm and Markings.

Item 4a.

If you are modifying an existing firearm, enter the name and location of the original manufacturer.


If you are creating the firearm, enter the maker’s name, city and state
.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by fishman » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:01 pm

1rflman wrote:
John A. wrote:I got a *delay* letter this morning telling me that I need to make corrections on my F1.

It's a F1 silencer.

There are no mistakes on the form. I'm going to call them Monday, but damn?

Image

1. It is not being made from a pre-existing receiver or manufacturer. So, I listed my name/address. That's how it's been done on all my other forms since I am the manufacturer.

2. It is not being made from an 80% receiver. I can draw them a sketch of a long rectangle. As I'm sure you're aware, it's starting out as a piece of raw pipe/tubing.

3. The serial number and model was listed exactly as it was going to be engraved. I'm sure the model name is not going to be in their database of drop down selections.
1. You are not the manufacturer, you are the "maker". On the Form 1 application, you would enter FM1 on that line.

2. Entering the correct info on line 1, this will not be required.

3. This will be accepted as you entered it because of line 1.
I put FMI on my old eforms, then did the same thing on paper forms post-41F. I was denied on my paper forms even though I filled them out exactly how my aproved eforms were. I told the examiner that, and she didnt care. I put my info in and was then approved.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:39 pm

That may be what the examiner wants, but if he/she would actually take 2 seconds to read the forms, should be rather evident.

instructions:
Item 4a.
If you are modifying an existing firearm, enter the name and location of the original manufacturer.
*this doesn't pertain to me. I'm not doing this.

If you are creating the firearm, enter the maker’s name, city and state.
*This does pertain to me and is what I did.
-----------
I'm also going to tell them, that if they think I filled this paperwork out wrong, they may as well dig out the other form I have waiting in cue and send it back to me for correction too, because it's filled out correctly as well.

Maybe it will shave a couple more weeks off of the wait for it.
-----------
Further, the new forms do not even mention diagrams or sketches or whatever she said for #2. Not on the form anywhere, so I'm certainly going to ask about that. In no uncertain terms, I'm going to ask where I am required to provide that information with the paperwork and where it says that I am supposed to provide that.


Granted that I do remember it mentioned on some of my oldest forms, it is no longer on the form. Nor in the instructions.

If I have to provide a sketch and description, I am going to do this on a separate sheet and include it with the paperwork when I mail it back--

Description:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-g ... n-silencer

18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(24)
The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm
___________________________________________
This silencer is going to be made from a raw piece of aluminum tubing and rod.
It is going to muffle the sound of a gunshot.
It will have a rear cap, a long tube that contains the baffling to slow the release of the expanding gasses, and will also have a front cap and will be engraved with the markings as required by the 1968 Gun Control Act.
It will go on the end of a barrel.
_________________________________________________
Sketch of a silencer:
Image
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:26 am

Not sure how I'm going to get this remedied.

2 calls to NFA branch today and both times they want to put me through to research assistant.

Research assistant is not answering her phone.

If no callback by lunch time, at 1PM, I'm calling to ask for research assistant supervisor.
Last edited by John A. on Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by Hard_ware » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:08 pm

I have never called but email has worked for me.

I listed my email on my form1, atf emailed me they couldn’t download the file I made reuploaded it from my iPhone, emailed back it was done and went approved in under 30min.

Keep in mind that the efile personnel are not working paper.

Also I only submitted the first 2 pages and last 2, they didn’t want Cleo part submitted.
Years past all the pages were submitted, so not sure what’s changed other then people.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:58 pm

This isnt' an efile form. It's a paper form.

I spoke with her supervisor just after lunch. He looked at the control number and was as stumped about it as I was. Told me that she'll call me TODAY *emphasis his.

No one should be very surprised, but I didn't receive that call.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by gsyoung54 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:14 pm

John A. wrote:I got a *delay* letter this morning telling me that I need to make corrections on my F1.

It's a F1 silencer.

There are no mistakes on the form. I'm going to call them Monday, but damn?

Image

1. It is not being made from a pre-existing receiver or manufacturer. So, I listed my name/address. That's how it's been done on all my other forms since I am the manufacturer.

2. It is not being made from an 80% receiver. I can draw them a sketch of a long rectangle. As I'm sure you're aware, it's starting out as a piece of raw pipe/tubing.

3. The serial number and model was listed exactly as it was going to be engraved. I'm sure the model name is not going to be in their database of drop down selections.
I don't know if it's the same with Form 1 builds but all my model names of my Form 3 purchased suppressors showed up on the ATF agents list when I was inspected last month.
By the way, this guy was very pleasant to deal with. He was a nice young man, not a grumpy just in it for a second retirement type of guy.
George from Alaska

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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:56 pm

gsyoung54 wrote: By the way, this guy was very pleasant to deal with. He was a nice young man, not a grumpy just in it for a second retirement type of guy.
I am certain that means he would never gleefully and maliciously destroy your life just for fun, then.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by gsyoung54 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:15 pm

poikilotrm wrote:
gsyoung54 wrote: By the way, this guy was very pleasant to deal with. He was a nice young man, not a grumpy just in it for a second retirement type of guy.
I am certain that means he would never gleefully and maliciously destroy your life just for fun, then.
:lol: :lol: Yeah.. there is that...
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by T-Rex » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:15 am

poikilotrm wrote: I am certain that means he would never gleefully and maliciously destroy your life just for fun, then.
I was under the impression they were paid contractors and not direct employees of the ATF?
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by gsyoung54 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:08 pm

T-Rex wrote:
poikilotrm wrote: I am certain that means he would never gleefully and maliciously destroy your life just for fun, then.
I was under the impression they were paid contractors and not direct employees of the ATF?
The agent that did my last inspection showed me his badge and Federal ID. Having been in public safety for 34 years I looked closely at his credentials and had to show him my ID also. His looked legit and his knowledge of FFL and NFA laws was better than some past agents and even some NFA owners and SOT's I know. I later asked him about his job and if it was the type of job he was going to make a career out of and he said he did work for the Federal Government and once he got in it turned out to be a good job and that yes he wanted to make it a career. He was awfully generous with me when I could not produce a new in box suppressor that I had positively seen the night before. He said he had to go, it was after 5:30 by the time we were done with the exception of the one suppressor. He asked me if I was sure that I had it here at my premises or if there was any chance that it was lost or stolen in which case he offered to assist me in filling out the proper form. I told him that I absolutely saw it the day before, still in sealed plastic because it was going to be for sale. He told me to take a break, then look for it and if found contact him and he could stop by and check it off the list. I found it and the matter is resolved. I was also able to produce copies of Form 3's showing my ownership of two suppressors that did not show on the NFA database because the company that sold them to me forgot to file paperwork with the NFA. Since I had the signed and approved Form 3 detailing the sale I was confused but he took pictures of the Forms and said he would talk to the registry people. He later e-mailed me and said sometimes the Registry had my suppressors under my Business Name and sometimes had them under my name... even more confusing since I have never done a Form 4.

I messaged a person on GunBroker this past week about the fairly new Kraken suppressor they had for sale which comes with a 1/2x28 piston and asked about a metric left hand piston for my Sig 9mm factory barrels and also asked if they knew if the Kraken pistons were compatible with any other manufacturers pistons as if often the case today. She wrote me back and said she had "no idea" about either question. I replied and asked if she was the SOT or a worker there. She replied and said "they" were pretty new to the "SOT Thing" and were "in the process of learning"..... honest enough I guess but disappointing.
I can't get anything from the Zev website so I need to call them. Often by the time I'm ready to make phone calls and can speak coherently businesses in the lower 48 are often closed...
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:22 pm

Alright, the research assistant returned my call this evening. Apologized for not calling back sooner, but stated she is on vacation this week and only signed today for a few hours and was notified to contact me. Not sure why they couldn't just refer me to whoever is taking her calls but OK.

I told her the silencer is not starting from a pre-made receiver and that I was going to be the original maker of it, so she said only needs a sketch of it in that case then.

I told her I couldn't draw good and she told me it didn't matter as long as the overall length measurement that I put on the form was jotted on the sketch somewhere and to include the sketch with the paperwork and letter when I return it.

I returned the forms with a hand drawn sketch of a long rectangle which is supposed to represent a piece of 17.5" tube today. I don't know what else they want. Cross your fingers.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by gsyoung54 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:41 pm

John A. wrote:Alright, the research assistant returned my call this evening. Apologized for not calling back sooner, but stated she is on vacation this week and only signed today for a few hours and was notified to contact me. Not sure why they couldn't just refer me to whoever is taking her calls but OK.

I told her the silencer is not starting from a pre-made receiver and that I was going to be the original maker of it, so she said only needs a sketch of it in that case then.

I told her I couldn't draw good and she told me it didn't matter as long as the overall length measurement that I put on the form was jotted on the sketch somewhere and to include the sketch with the paperwork and letter when I return it.

I returned the forms with a hand drawn sketch of a long rectangle which is supposed to represent a piece of 17.5" tube today. I don't know what else they want. Cross your fingers.
I am headed to the range now and will shoot suppressed in honor of your navigation through strange lands... don't fall off the edge of the earth..
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by fishman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:06 pm

I REALLLLY hope your sketch was literally just a rectangle and a length dimension.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:24 pm

fishman wrote:I REALLLLY hope your sketch was literally just a rectangle and a length dimension.
Image

I warned them in advance that I couldn't draw good.
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by #40Fan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:45 pm

Better than the picture I would have sent them.

I would have included a front view without a hole in it at the very bottom left of your side view. Maybe even drew a few bullets exiting the right end!

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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:52 pm

:lol:
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by fishman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:56 pm

John A. wrote:
fishman wrote:I REALLLLY hope your sketch was literally just a rectangle and a length dimension.
Image

I warned them in advance that I couldn't draw good.
Lmfao
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Re: WTH is up with nfa branch?

Post by John A. » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:35 pm

What I'd like to know is how they can delay an application and then require you to submit things that you're not required to submit?
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