Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:17 pm

Looking into building a 12 bore integral once the rules are interpreted.A large volume eccentric coaxial design is contemplated.This is a large bore rifle not a shotgun.The planed projectile will be a diabolo wasp waist pellet design. I would like to incorporate a quick release breech plug like various muzzle loading rifles already use but not sure how they work?

Thoughts?

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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by garredondojr » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:28 pm

Last time I spoke with the ATF on interpreted(a few months ago) I was told they would no longer make a determination based off plans, drawings or even comparable pre-existing approved products.

I was told that I would have to build the item in question and send the sample to their tech branch and if the item was in the clear it would be returned if it is deemed something regulated by the NFA or GCA it would be deemed contraband and would either be destroyed or I would have to go through the hoops of registering it. I was told however I could give instructions to remove and destroy the controlled part and have my host weapon returned.

They stated that since I had submitted and inquiry I was allowed to make the item for submission and that I would not be prosecuted for having possession of a controlled item as long as I did things through the proper channels as outlined in the message I was sent. in other words to not use the item until given the blessing.

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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by John A. » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:07 pm

I don't care what your chart says

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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:15 am

garredondojr wrote:Last time I spoke with the ATF on interpreted(a few months ago) I was told they would no longer make a determination based off plans, drawings or even comparable pre-existing approved products.

I was told that I would have to build the item in question and send the sample to their tech branch and if the item was in the clear it would be returned if it is deemed something regulated by the NFA or GCA it would be deemed contraband and would either be destroyed or I would have to go through the hoops of registering it. I was told however I could give instructions to remove and destroy the controlled part and have my host weapon returned.

They stated that since I had submitted and inquiry I was allowed to make the item for submission and that I would not be prosecuted for having possession of a controlled item as long as I did things through the proper channels as outlined in the message I was sent. in other words to not use the item until given the blessing.
I know of the process but question if its correct or legal in this case.Way to many agents make field statements that do not reflect current law.Based upon this statement every suppressor ever built would need to be submitted first and approved.Exact copies of pre approved designs would to.Design a new baffle or QC device and you would need a prototype.Building a prototype for submission on items in question is a normal procedure for NFA or CGA items that are have not clearly been approved previously.I'm in no way questioning what you were told but the validity is in question as it is not written into law at this time. I'm also no fool and will not go into something that is clearly illegal.I'll post as I move along in the process.
Thank you -CL
Thank you to John A
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by John A. » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:24 am

If it's welded onto the barrel, it couldn't be used on a firearm.

Same with those air rifles with moderators. Completely legal on a "non-gun". Which black powders are also "non-guns".

Just my humble opinion of it.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by garredondojr » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:56 am

Capt. Link. wrote: I know of the process but question if its correct or legal in this case.Way to many agents make field statements that do not reflect current law.Based upon this statement every suppressor ever built would need to be submitted first and approved.Exact copies of pre approved designs would to.Design a new baffle or QC device and you would need a prototype.Building a prototype for submission on items in question is a normal procedure for NFA or CGA items that are have not clearly been approved previously.I'm in no way questioning what you were told but the validity is in question as it is not written into law at this time. I'm also no fool and will not go into something that is clearly illegal.I'll post as I move along in the process.
Thank you -CL
Very valid points guess it depends on how brave you are. I tend to be a little more on the chicken side of things :mrgreen:
The part that sucks is alot of things involving the ATF are very vague and grey. With my luck i'd be the test case and although i'd likely prevail at what cost? ton's in legal fee's, missing work, ect... just to keep yourself out of trouble. The micromanaging of america is getting out of control. The whole you can do that....why?.....uh because I said so......umm ok show me where.......uhh one sec....here we just made up a new rule this is why! this nonsense is really getting stupid. (referring to more than the ATF my last employer was adding revisions to our handbook on almost a monthly basis, we'd have a meeting and bust out the glue sticks to glue in da new rules. :evil: )

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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:01 pm

garredondojr wrote:
Very valid points guess it depends on how brave you are. I tend to be a little more on the chicken side of things :mrgreen:
The part that sucks is alot of things involving the ATF are very vague and grey. With my luck i'd be the test case and although i'd likely prevail at what cost? ton's in legal fee's, missing work, ect... just to keep yourself out of trouble. The micromanaging of america is getting out of control. The whole you can do that....why?.....uh because I said so......umm ok show me where.......uhh one sec....here we just made up a new rule this is why! this nonsense is really getting stupid. (referring to more than the ATF my last employer was adding revisions to our handbook on almost a monthly basis, we'd have a meeting and bust out the glue sticks to glue in da new rules. :evil: )
I'm no brave soul treading into danger! I used to build NFA toys under license and had the law explained.Law in print is very specific in its scope.Letters must be based upon those written laws.Areas that are not covered are open, but may latter fall under new laws.

If you look at the letter covering the Maxim 50 the permanent nature of the suppressor and the fact that ML are exempt from NFA & CGA takes the case outside of the BATFE.
John A. wrote:If it's welded onto the barrel, it couldn't be used on a firearm.

Same with those air rifles with moderators. Completely legal on a "non-gun". Which black powders are also "non-guns".

Just my humble opinion of it.


The baffles and caps are also welded so the barrel/suppressor is one piece that is a legal point in the BATFEs letter.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by T-Rex » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:45 pm

I've followed several people who claimed they were starting one, but yet to produce a final product. It'd be great to see one done.

The legalese seems to be on the side of the maker.
Capt. Link. wrote:The baffles and caps are also welded so the barrel/suppressor is one piece that is a legal point in the BATFEs letter.
I would agree that this seems to be the smartest design, and cleaning should be a forethought. Porting a std 60* cone baffle stack may be a very usable idea. Since welding the core is the best case scenario, forego the outer tube and simplify the design further. The ports should easily allow hot water to be poured out the muzzle.

Some patents for your breech query.
US7726058B2
US9810507B2
US20130174458A1
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:45 pm

T-Rex wrote:I've followed several people who claimed they were starting one, but yet to produce a final product. It'd be great to see one done.

The legalese seems to be on the side of the maker.
Capt. Link. wrote:The baffles and caps are also welded so the barrel/suppressor is one piece that is a legal point in the BATFEs letter.
I would agree that this seems to be the smartest design, and cleaning should be a forethought. Porting a std 60* cone baffle stack may be a very usable idea. Since welding the core is the best case scenario, forego the outer tube and simplify the design further. The ports should easily allow hot water to be poured out the muzzle.

Some patents for your breech query.
US7726058B2
US9810507B2
US20130174458A1
Score.....T....100 points....

I'm thinking of dunking the whole thing in a vertical tank for cleaning.I've shot BP most of my life and cleaning a suppressor will be nasty w/ a capitol N. Hydro-sonic or electrolytic could be used with a bit of hot soapy water or other cleaning agents if needed.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Elkins45 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:18 pm

I have said a whole bunch of times that Silencerco would have met with a lot more success if they had built a smokeless gun. Savage did it. A smokeless gun solves all the cleaning problems.

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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:19 pm

Elkins45 wrote:I have said a whole bunch of times that Silencerco would have met with a lot more success if they had built a smokeless gun. Savage did it. A smokeless gun solves all the cleaning problems.
I thought Savage stopped selling the smokeless muzzleloader because of law suites.I doubt the product was defective only the people overloading them. A vertical tank solves 99% of the cleaning issues with blackpowder as it dissolves so easily. I'm not sure if that applies to all the BP substitutes though my experience is limited.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by doubloon » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:49 am

Depending on your choice of projectile wouldn't you still get a bit of lead fouling with smokeless?
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by fishman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:27 am

doubloon wrote:Depending on your choice of projectile wouldn't you still get a bit of lead fouling with smokeless?
Absolutely. But I think it's safe to say that an all copper projectile will not leave any lead behind.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by T-Rex » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:18 am

doubloon wrote:Depending on your choice of projectile wouldn't you still get a bit of lead fouling with smokeless?
If you're firing subsonic, leading shouldn't be too much an issue.
Coated projectiles are another option.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:28 am

doubloon wrote:Depending on your choice of projectile wouldn't you still get a bit of lead fouling with smokeless?
Smokeless or blackpowder will cause lead fowling air guns suffer from it too.The trick is to polish the bore so its easy to remove.Done correctly the accuracy is improved as well.I don't expect to shoot this allot its just for hunting so lead plating will not be a major issue.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:34 am

T-Rex wrote:
If you're firing subsonic, leading shouldn't be too much an issue.
Coated projectiles are another option.
Other than powder coating what options do I have? I was planing on just using Crisco packed into the base like you would a Minnie Bullet.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by T-Rex » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:14 pm

Capt. Link. wrote:Other than powder coating what options do I have?
Nylon, teflon, moly, polymer
A couple guys sell powder coating powders for the boolit casting crowd. Not sure if it's just a bulk of what HarborFreight sells.
Hi-Tek is a popular polymer.
Federal used to make nylon coated bullets (Nyclad). They've been replaced by a polymer (Syntech).

Several advantacges of the coatings.
No lube or lead buildup.
No need for a gas check
I've seen some guys running pretty high velocities w/ a simple powder coat, w/o leading issues.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:30 pm

I haven't thought much about coating's but the idea has merit. These are a few ideas I have on bullet types.Both are weight forward hollow base.I'm not looking to get pounded so a light projectile & FFFG will be used in the large bore short barrel.The final design will depend on ballistics and FPE at 100yds.
After doing some drawings with consideration towards ease of cleaning and to limit weight and bulk I decided not to make this eccentric.I plan on a 14" barrel w/ a 3.00x24.00 tube made from DOM tubing that will reflex over the whole barrel.Cone baffles w/ drainage holes as you eluded to will be used.

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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by daviscustom » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:52 pm

Sounds like a fun project.....I will have to keep my eyes open for a deal on a BP rifle! Too many other projects ahead of it, so I will have time to look for a bargain.

Powder coating can be a very low tech inexpensive option....a cool whip container, a bag of powder, some airsoft bb's and a toaster oven and you can be in business!
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by T-Rex » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:57 pm

Funny how these things find their way into your feed.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by alordnapa » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:39 pm

Not to intentionally twist the nipples of our beloved Uncle, but if a fixed mystery can of some type is on a non-firearm ( Blackpowder boomstick of some variety) Does it logically follow that a captive piston cylinder could be used on a muzzle loading revolver?

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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by doubloon » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:45 pm

T-Rex wrote:...
If you're firing subsonic, leading shouldn't be too much an issue.
Coated projectiles are another option.
Coated projectiles might help.

I was thinking about the lead that gets vaporized off the butt of the projectile like 22lr subs.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by T-Rex » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:04 pm

doubloon wrote: I was thinking about the lead that gets vaporized off the butt of the projectile like 22lr subs.
The coating covers the base and protects it.
You'd be surprised at the velocities a cast boolit can reach, once coated.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by Capt. Link. » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:03 pm

alordnapa wrote:Not to intentionally twist the nipples of our beloved Uncle, but if a fixed mystery can of some type is on a non-firearm ( Blackpowder boomstick of some variety) Does it logically follow that a captive piston cylinder could be used on a muzzle loading revolver?
Our weird uncle may like a titty twister.
It would not be difficult to do this on a rifle but a cap and ball revolver may be another story. I guess if you used a long cylinder you could do it.My question would be the short range of the design.
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Re: Muzzle loading integral suppressor

Post by daviscustom » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:01 am

So at what point does a black powder pistol become a firearm… Is it when it accepts a cartridge to reload? I presume it’s not just the propellant.

I presume you could build the cylinder so that it could be disassembled and charged with powder and reassemble with the pistons in place and loaded with balls in front of the Pistons ?
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