45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

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Colo32
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Colo32 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:03 pm

WOW! Thanks for all of the continued feedback. I'm going to tackle one thing at a time here with my revisions, so be patient with me. I'm going to increase the spacing on the baffles as suggested and model the zig-zag as well as the same rotation but not oriented. This last one would be easier as far as only machining one baffle type and not having to keep track of multiple baffles to maintain a helical channel.

Next lets focus on the brake design. My initial thinking on the double taper was better concentric lock-up without a long shallow taper that could have a tendency to lock together and be hard to remove. Working in a machine shop, we get tapered tools (CAT 30 & 40 tapers) that can lock up pretty tight in spindles, and they aren't that acute of an angle. The other reason is the LaRue brake I have for my TranQuilo has a double taper on it, and seals well. The TranQuilo does have a collet type of arrangement on the back to ensure it doesn't come loose however. I will revise to a single taper, but I think it should go between the threads and the blast chamber to create a seal and keep the threads clean.

Thanks again and stay tuned for the baffle revisions.....

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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by fishman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:35 pm

My 450 silencer has a 60° taper with 24TPI threads. It locks up ok. My 556 silencers uses griffin brakes which are 12° 20TPI. Much more solid.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by ECCO Machine » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:59 pm

fishman wrote:
I know we are throwing allot at you but you can add tune-ability to the design.If you internally thread the tube and externally the baffles you can then change the spacing and the blast chamber volume
That'll be fun once carbon gums up the threads. That's a hard pass from me.
Yup. You wouldn't have that tunability for very long.

It also necessitates keeping the entire tube thicker, and running internal threads, large diameter ones, through an entire length of tubing sucks donkey phallus. I don't even own a long enough bar to fully thread an 8" long tube.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by ECCO Machine » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:11 pm

Colo32 wrote: Next lets focus on the brake design. My initial thinking on the double taper was better concentric lock-up without a long shallow taper that could have a tendency to lock together and be hard to remove. Working in a machine shop, we get tapered tools (CAT 30 & 40 tapers) that can lock up pretty tight in spindles, and they aren't that acute of an angle. The other reason is the LaRue brake I have for my TranQuilo has a double taper on it, and seals well. The TranQuilo does have a collet type of arrangement on the back to ensure it doesn't come loose however. I will revise to a single taper, but I think it should go between the threads and the blast chamber to create a seal and keep the threads clean.
You're not pulling the can on with a draw bar, though; you're rotating on that taper, so it's not gonna lock up like tool tapers. That said, you won't want to crank them on too tight when the can is hot.

My 12° taper with the 12 TPI threads locks on hard enough that it won't loosen on it's own, but I've never had trouble removing it. I simply crank it on one handed, remove with two.

As for putting the taper forward of the threads, certainly can, but unless you go with really large threads, your taper is considerably smaller than one behind the threads. That means less surface area, so more prone to galling and more likely to loosen up.
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Colo32
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Colo32 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:58 pm

ECCO Machine wrote:My 12° taper with the 12 TPI threads locks on hard enough that it won't loosen on it's own, but I've never had trouble removing it. I simply crank it on one handed, remove with two.
You mentioned earlier the 12deg was included angle, 6deg per side? Is that correct?
I'll try them in front of and behind the threads and see how long of a taper each allows for.
But first the baffles......

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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by ECCO Machine » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:26 pm

Colo32 wrote: You mentioned earlier the 12deg was included angle, 6deg per side? Is that correct?
Yes
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by alordnapa » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:34 pm

The integrated suppressor on a Delisle is about 18 X 2 inches or so, and its close to "Hollywood" quiet. I wonder if this is largely due to the one foot chain of baffles, or just having a massive volume? Which ever is the case, it works!

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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Capt. Link. » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:12 pm

ECCO Machine wrote:
fishman wrote:
I know we are throwing allot at you but you can add tune-ability to the design.If you internally thread the tube and externally the baffles you can then change the spacing and the blast chamber volume
That'll be fun once carbon gums up the threads. That's a hard pass from me.
Yup. You wouldn't have that tunability for very long.
It also necessitates keeping the entire tube thicker, and running internal threads, large diameter ones, through an entire length of tubing sucks donkey phallus. I don't even own a long enough bar to fully thread an 8" long tube.

I guess us old timers can do what others can't. Its very easy to make light strong threaded tubing and with cleaning you can move the baffles for the lifetime of the suppressor though not needed once tuned.The ultimate suppression is gained with those two adjustments so its worth the effort when building a one off F1 suppressor.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Capt. Link. » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:48 pm

alordnapa wrote:The integrated suppressor on a Delisle is about 18 X 2 inches or so, and its close to "Hollywood" quiet. I wonder if this is largely due to the one foot chain of baffles, or just having a massive volume? Which ever is the case, it works!
The Delisle and other quiet ones are close to 50 cubic inches.Sorry I stepped on you.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by ECCO Machine » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:46 pm

Capt. Link. wrote: I guess us old timers can do what others can't.
I didn't say I couldn't do it. I said it sucks to do. I respect your knowledge and what I've seen of your work, but the arrogance is not appreciated one bit.
Capt. Link. wrote:Its very easy to make light strong threaded tubing and with cleaning you can move the baffles for the lifetime of the suppressor though not needed once tuned.The ultimate suppression is gained with those two adjustments so its worth the effort when building a one off F1 suppressor.
Very easy, huh? Hanging a bar 8"+ off your tool post magnifies deflection incredibly, even on large machines with heavy carriages and compounds. You also have to be able to keep the length of tubing from deflecting. Perhaps you'll document in a video threading the entire 8" length of some 1.5" or 1.625" OD .070 wall gr. 9 CWSR Ti tube 24 TPI. I'll pay for the tube and have it sent to you so there's no dollar investment on your part. Class 2 threads are fine. Gotta see a class 2 male part run from one end to the other.

As for moving them, how many such tubes have you played with? The couple prototypes that I've had experience with (not mine), the baffles were seized in a very low round count (<100). Soaking in solvents & oils got them free enough to move, but they came out with difficulty, very gritty, and the threads in the tube and on the baffles looked like s--t, anodizing largely scrubbed off.

I'd sooner use skirtless cones and spacers than mess with that.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by fishman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:48 pm

I'd sooner use skirtless cones and spacers than mess with that.
agreed. itd be WAY easier to just make a bunch of 1/8" spacers and arrange the can in different ways with them
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Colo32 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:17 am

Here are 2 versions of what has been discussed as well as detail of the revised clipping. Not sure if I got it modeled correctly or not.....
Image
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by #40Fan » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:37 am

What about pins and notches to hold everything the way you have it modeled?

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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by T-Rex » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:37 am

#40Fan wrote:What about pins and notches to hold everything the way you have it modeled?
If the baffles are designed tight enough, like SWR's CTA (Click Together Assembly), everything will hold itself in place. The Octane uses this style and it works very well.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by fishman » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:45 pm

Clip them like this:

Image

The goal is to let gasses enter easily that are flowing perpendicular to the bore, but restrict gasses flowing parallel to the bore.

This baffle also has a better profile. You want the baffle walls at the front to be almost parallel to the bore, this makes sure the the clip doesnt increase the bore area much
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by T-Rex » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:25 pm

fishman wrote:Clip them like this:
Yes. I believe this pic is on the first page as well.
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Colo32
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Colo32 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:29 pm

fishman wrote:Clip them like this:

Image

The goal is to let gasses enter easily that are flowing perpendicular to the bore, but restrict gasses flowing parallel to the bore.

This baffle also has a better profile. You want the baffle walls at the front to be almost parallel to the bore, this makes sure the the clip doesnt increase the bore area much
That looks like how I did the clip originally, just maybe not extended as much as your picture shows.
Image

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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Colo32 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:38 pm

Ok, totally had my head up my butt on this one. How about this:
Image

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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by fishman » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:03 pm

Exactly
I was just about to fire up cad to show you. Thanks for saving me the trouble, lol

See how there's less bore area on that front view, yet theres just as much area for gasses to enter sideways
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Colo32 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Changed profile as well.
Top pic newest compared to bottom pic oldest.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by fishman » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:23 pm

Thats a winner.

(But make that front cap EVEN thinner at the OD)
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by Colo32 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:00 pm

Hows this:
Image
All of the baffles now have a .020 land on the front surface.

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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by T-Rex » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:25 am

From a pure design standpoint, there are a couple items I'd have done differently.

Image
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by ECCO Machine » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:00 am

T-Rex wrote:From a pure design standpoint, there are a couple items I'd have done differently.

Image
I do a tiny shoulder like that for the stacks I'm gonna weld (.030"x.025"), but I think OPs more robust step will be good for a serviceable can.

That said, I think he could shed some weight on the cones. .030" skirts and .040" cone walls. I don't go .062" on anything except for blast and sometimes #2 baffle.
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Re: 45 Cal Suppressor Design Review

Post by T-Rex » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:40 am

My model has the skirt Thk @ .040 and I think the ledge length is half the Thk. I can't say I've ever gone much large than this. Unless your doing a feature like the CTA, I couldn't see a need for it. Any particular reason your serviceable cans are designed as such? Do you drop baffles into the tube or stack them and slide the tube over?
I also added a flat, between the end of the radius and the shoulder.
The biggest difference is the internal profile. The skirt flows into the cone w/ a simple tool nose radius. No need for that exaggerated step in the OP's design.
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