Form 1 .22 or 9mm solvent trap build ?

[ECCO Machine]

How much does the weather play? I live close to sea level.

Altitude affects sonic barrier, but has little bearing on SPL. Shooter's ear levels can be affected by temperature & humidity.

I have not seen any Silencers go much lower than about 114 db for the .22lr subsonic. Is that what you have been seeing? I am looking for a Silence that will Reduce a 16 to 22" Rifle barrel as much as I can so I can shoot with out much noise leaving my property. And I like quite shooting.

Low one-hundred-teens is about the bottom end without going integral.

Will larger Diameter Silencer work better than smaller Diameter ones and will longer work better than shorter units. I am bench rest shooting so Sound reduction is number one.

I read that internal Volume is key. So Will a 8" long x 1.25" dia less noisy than a 6"x1"

Yes, within reason, length is better than diameter for a given volume & weight. There's a time component; suppressors have to do what they do between the time the bullet enters and when it exits. Longer cans simply provide more time.

As for greater volume, it depends on the design. Simply scaling up a design can have the opposite effect if there's not enough gas volume & pressure for the baffle features to do what they're designed to do. Any bigger than about 1"x7" on a .22 LR, the extra volume is best used for a post-core coaxial expansion chamber. I've done a couple recores that way for form 1 suppressors that were quite large.

Do you have a web site?

Not anymore. Too much hassle & expense to maintain when one doesn't use it as a storefront. I just use FB now

https://www.facebook.com/ECCOmachine

Here is a Question Is a Silencer considered a Firearm Just like a Bare Stripped AR Lower.

For the purpose of final transfer (NICS, 4473), yes.

How long does it take to purchase one of your units? Can I use E-file? Times are shorter from what I hear.

eForms for form 4 is not up & running yet. Paper only, and yes, ~8 months for individual, 10-12 for trusts. eForm 1 is running 2-3 weeks, government shutdowns notwithstanding.

[dynotime]

Thank you, I filled out the Form 1 on line with E-file. They took my money in the blink of a eye.

What a pain it was to fill out the form on line. ( now wait)

So now I have to search for parts but I have no Idea what or where to purchase parts that will allow me to tinker once the Tax Stamp arrives.

What about Engraving? Any places that can put my information on a tube? Or just use a tool Scribe and put my name, town and Make and Model on the tube. Is that Legal?

Thanks for the info on the longer Tube. I will try for 8" as this is for a .22lr Rifle. and put as many Chambers as I can fit.

I was thinking the First 1.5" will be a large space and then stack at 1/2" If I can Find Parts.


I have to say once I hit the pay now on the E-File from wow how fast they took my money, So I guess I paid my Tax Fee. LOL.

When building can I test different designs before I settle on my final product.

As the " Maker " can I replace worn out parts Down the Road?

I also want a web page for our Bulls Eye Shooting Group.

I will also have to look into Face Book but seems anyone can post on Face Book But not sure about That.

I found a hosting site for 3$ a month. and 2$ to purchase a Web address one time fee.

But I have no Idea how to have a active site.. Just so the Group can have a place to post,Chat and keep informed. And post pictures of Winning Targets.

My Wife works with a IT guy Maybe he can point me in the Correct Direction.

ncesonline.com/top-cheapest-web-hosting-sites/
https://checkout.hostgator.com

[John A.]

My replies in red

What about Engraving? Any places that can put my information on a tube?

tarheelstatefirearms is great. They're not expensive, are good, and are pretty quick.

Or just use a tool Scribe and put my name, town and Make and Model on the tube. Is that Legal?

You can if you want. Long as you meet the minimum size and depth requirements.

Thanks for the info on the longer Tube. I will try for 8" as this is for a .22lr Rifle. and put as many Chambers as I can fit.

I was thinking the First 1.5" will be a large baffle space and then stack at 1/2" If I can Find Parts.

The longer the expansion baffle is, the more likelihood of first round pop. I recommend between 1/2 and 3/4, with the former preferred on the expansion chamber.


I have to say once I hit the pay now on the E-File from wow how fast they took my money, So I guess I paid my Tax Fee. LOL.

When building can I test different designs before I settle on my final product.

You can't have extra parts. You can rearrange baffles with different sized spacers, but you can't exchange parts for others. That's a big negatory ghost rider.

As the " Maker " can I replace worn out parts Down the Road?

Another nope. Supposedly, only a licensed manufacturer can recore or repair. I think that's a bunch of bull malarkey, but ask the atf and that's the answer they'll give you.

[dynotime]

Building would be in the process of. Errors happen when using machines. So you are saying If I scrap a part of the build I cannot compete the work? Seems strange. Why would anyone pay 200$ to the atf and then not be allowed to complete the work if a mistake is made while building.

Any FFL with a 07 can replace parts?

[T-Rex]

Thanks for the info on the longer Tube. I will try for 8" as this is for a .22lr Rifle. and put as many Chambers as I can fit.
There's no need/reason to go larger than a 1"OD by 6"LG. Plenty of examples already given.
I was thinking the First 1.5" will be a large space and then stack at 1/2" If I can Find Parts.
Your going to want as small an expansion chamber as possible, with 22lr. Also, saying 1.5" means nothing w/o knowing baffle type and dimensions. I'd recommend the blast baffle be 1/8" from the crown of the muzzle.
When building can I test different designs before I settle on my final product.
As stated, NO. As stated, you can rearrange the parts, but not make more.
As the " Maker " can I replace worn out parts Down the Road?
Yes (technically). Let's say a bullet hit a baffle and destroyed it. You can legally file a new Form1, destroy/obliterate damaged baffle, make a new baffle, engrave said new baffle w/ new Form1 info, insert new baffle into old suppressor. This is legal and could cost less than sending the suppressor to an SOT.

[John A.]

Building would be in the process of. Errors happen when using machines. So you are saying If I scrap a part of the build I cannot compete the work?

That's not what you asked.

Nor was that what I said.

[ECCO Machine]

What about Engraving? Any places that can put my information on a tube? Or just use a tool Scribe and put my name, town and Make and Model on the tube. Is that Legal?

You can engrave it however you like, but should adhere to the minimums for manufacturers (at least 1/16" characters, at least .003" deep). If you want to save money and electro-pencil the thing, go for it.

If you opt for a titanium tube, do not have laser engraving done. Mechanical only. Laser embrittles the material in the heat affected zones, and even .22 cans are known to split at the engraving.

I was thinking the First 1.5" will be a large space and then stack at 1/2" If I can Find Parts.

As John & T-Rex mentioned, you want a minimal blast chamber with low pressure rounds, especially subsonic, and especially especially .22 LR subsonic. Supersonic rifle rounds are an entirely different matter.

Building would be in the process of. Errors happen when using machines. So you are saying If I scrap a part of the build I cannot compete the work? Seems strange. Why would anyone pay 200$ to the atf and then not be allowed to complete the work if a mistake is made while building.

Any FFL with a 07 can replace parts?

You can scrap bad parts and re-make them during the initial build process. Once it is done, however, new parts have to be either made on another From 1 or done by an 02 SOT.

[dynotime]

Thank you ECCO

[ajax5184]

I have a few more questions for you guys. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a DM kit. This one https://diversifiedmachine.us/product/s ... anium-kit/

It comes with 6 radial cones, and then I ordered 4 more additional cones from totality to try and fit in too. This is what the kit looks like.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/1 ... 835267.jpg

Seems reasonable that I could cut a few of the spacers and slip 4 more cones in.

My questions are:

Can you cut titanium tubing with a plumbing type tube cutter?

Any advice on what size bit to use in the drill press or any other advice on drilling the holes?

Since this is all titanium and stainless, should it work with any caliber that will fit? Like .17 for example.

Any general advice/recommendation on doing the clips?


Thanks in advance!

[ECCO Machine]

My questions are:

Can you cut titanium tubing with a plumbing type tube cutter?

Yeah, but I don't think you'll like the results, and it's gonna trash your average tubing cutter.

Any advice on what size bit to use in the drill press or any other advice on drilling the holes?

For using a drill press and standard twist drills, I certainly wouldn't do less than .060" over bullet diameter, probably more like .080-.100. Depends on how concentric you're able to drill, though. Most of my cans have a bore .050" to .060" over max nominal bullet diameter; .275" for .22 cal, .365" for .308 cal, .410" for 9mm, .505" for .45, tolerance +.010/-0.

Since this is all titanium and stainless, should it work with any caliber that will fit? Like .17 for example.

Probably, but there are certainly variables which may preclude some cartridges.

Any general advice/recommendation on doing the clips?

Depends on your capabilities & equipment. Single asymmetric radiused usually provide the best suppression with cone & radial cone baffles, but need to be aligned and are less forgiving of loose tolerances than some of the symmetric or half moon style clips.

[ajax5184]

My questions are:

Can you cut titanium tubing with a plumbing type tube cutter?

Yeah, but I don't think you'll like the results, and it's gonna trash your average tubing cutter.

Any advice on what size bit to use in the drill press or any other advice on drilling the holes?

For using a drill press and standard twist drills, I certainly wouldn't do less than .060" over bullet diameter, probably more like .080-.100. Depends on how concentric you're able to drill, though. Most of my cans have a bore .050" to .060" over max nominal bullet diameter; .275" for .22 cal, .365" for .308 cal, .410" for 9mm, .505" for .45, tolerance +.010/-0.

Since this is all titanium and stainless, should it work with any caliber that will fit? Like .17 for example.

Probably, but there are certainly variables which may preclude some cartridges.

Any general advice/recommendation on doing the clips?

Depends on your capabilities & equipment. Single asymmetric radiused usually provide the best suppression with cone & radial cone baffles, but need to be aligned and are less forgiving of loose tolerances than some of the symmetric or half moon style clips.

My equipment is basically drill press and dremel and files. Would a cut off wheel on the dremel work better than a tube cutter? What other options are there for cutting ti tube?

[ECCO Machine]

My equipment is basically drill press and dremel and files. Would a cut off wheel on the dremel work better than a tube cutter? What other options are there for cutting ti tube?

Yeah, Dremel cut off wheel would be better if you don't have a chop saw, band saw (metal cutting) or lathe.

I use a portable band saw, or just cut them on the lathe with an MGMN parting tool.

[ajax5184]

My equipment is basically drill press and dremel and files. Would a cut off wheel on the dremel work better than a tube cutter? What other options are there for cutting ti tube?

Yeah, Dremel cut off wheel would be better if you don't have a chop saw, band saw (metal cutting) or lathe.

I use a portable band saw, or just cut them on the lathe with an MGMN parting tool.

Thanks!

[ajax5184]

One more question on hole size. I was getting ready to order some bits, was planning on 5/16 to put me in that .08 to .10 over range ecco suggested to be safe since I only have a drill press. The more I was looking at it though I think the biggest hole I can drill would be .277 without getting into the walls. The face diameter is .367 and wall thickness is .045. So now I am wondering if I should just drill like a .25 hole and then take my dremel with a carbide tip and grind back to the wall all the way around. That would give me a much smaller hole than has been suggested at .277, but seems like doing it this way would be safe to go with a smaller hole because I shouldn’t have to worry really about them being center drilled since I would just grind them all right to the wall. Does this sound like an ok idea?

[ECCO Machine]

but seems like doing it this way would be safe to go with a smaller hole because I shouldn’t have to worry really about them being center drilled since I would just grind them all right to the wall. Does this sound like an ok idea?

If the features of the baffle allow you to make the hole pretty concentric using a rotary tool after drilling, I don't see a problem with doing so. The eye has a pretty easy time seeing a small disparity like .005" when the overall thickness of parts or areas being compared is only 3 or 4 times that. And, of course, you can use calipers to verify within a couple thou.

It would be a pain in the butt, but if you take your time, I see no reason you couldn't produce holes concentric enough that .050"-.060" diametral clearance will be fine.

[ajax5184]

but seems like doing it this way would be safe to go with a smaller hole because I shouldn’t have to worry really about them being center drilled since I would just grind them all right to the wall. Does this sound like an ok idea?

If the features of the baffle allow you to make the hole pretty concentric using a rotary tool after drilling, I don't see a problem with doing so. The eye has a pretty easy time seeing a small disparity like .005" when the overall thickness of parts or areas being compared is only 3 or 4 times that. And, of course, you can use calipers to verify within a couple thou.

It would be a pain in the butt, but if you take your time, I see no reason you couldn't produce holes concentric enough that .050"-.060" diametral clearance will be fine.

Thanks again for the input!

[ajax5184]

Here is my finished product. The first 5 shots are unsuppressed, then next 4 suppressed.

https://youtu.be/l-x_Po-xxzM

I have another quick question. I have the first five cones spaced at .375. That seemed to work pretty good at getting rid of the first round pop, at least to my ear I didn’t notice much. My question is, does that frp reduction come at the cost of more sound coming back out of the side port? Just wondering if it could be a little quieter overall if the first cone or two were spaced a little further apart.

[John A.]

3/8 is a good spacing for 22lr.

[T-Rex]

Albeit it's from a video, but all I'm really hearing is action noise and not necessarily what would be deemed port pop. My suppressed Spike's upper has the same issue. The action noise is counter to how quiet the muzzle report is.

Moving your internals around isn't going to make the action less noisy.

Is that a 15-22? If so, I'm not sure if there are mods available to help alleviate the issue. The CMMG style bolt has several mods and I still need to do 2 more.

[ajax5184]

Albeit it's from a video, but all I'm really hearing is action noise and not necessarily what would be deemed port pop. My suppressed Spike's upper has the same issue. The action noise is counter to how quiet the muzzle report is.

Moving your internals around isn't going to make the action less noisy.

Is that a 15-22? If so, I'm not sure if there are mods available to help alleviate the issue. The CMMG style bolt has several mods and I still need to do 2 more.

Thanks for the info, I guess I will just leave it spaced as is. So will the action noise be an issue on any semi auto, or is the ar platform just particularly noisy?

[John A.]

Rack the action on any semi auto firearm and that is how much noise that particular gun is going to make period. It is inevitable and unavoidable.

There are some hosts better than others. There are some that are much worse than others.

If you want no action noise, look into single shot break actions like the HR Pardner or Handi Rifle. Those are among my favorites.

Bolt actions and many well loved and worn lever actions are also really quiet too where suppression is concerned.

And no, the AR action isn't among the worst hosts out there.

You can hear a pump shotgun or something like an AK47 from a long way off even if you don't pull the trigger. Even the Ruger 10/22 is pretty loud in my opinion.

[ajax5184]

Reconfigured my cones to put the 2 double clips first and last instead of first and second, and lined the single clips up instead of 120 degree indexed. Made a huge difference. I spliced together the before and after. First 4 before, last 5 after. My only complaint with it now is the shitty paint job I did is flaking off after one range trip.

https://youtu.be/ZT1JzWS6ThQ

[T-Rex]

Definitely sounds better, but that metal roof in the first vid doesn't help credibility. Not that it matters. If your'e please, we're pleased

As for the finish
Preval Sprayer
Moly Resin

[ajax5184]

Oh yeah good point on the tin roof. Maybe thats why I didn’t like the sound the first time. Guess I need to shoot one in that same spot to have a good video comparison, I will try that next time.

Would a 9mm suppressor use similar principles as a rimfire suppressor as it is also relatively low pressure? Just a little bigger tube?

[John A.]

Yes. It's the same principle.

22lr, especially in a bolt action, is about as quiet as it's going to get. I know that many folks like to use short barrels to cut down on the overall length of things, but longer barrels allow the powder to burn out and cool prior to entering the suppressor, thus making it more efficient and quiet.

But many pistol calibers suppress well too. (38 special, 9mm, 32acp and others). Further, 9mm suppressors will shoot all 3 of those mentioned above and even more. These were just some of the more common and popular calibers.