300 Black Out Welded Can

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Mattman2010
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300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by Mattman2010 »

New guy here! Currently waiting on two of my first NFA items to get approved and decided I need more, I am looking at making a 300 black out SBR, and a form 1 can for it as well. Looked at designs on the forums all weekend and ran across T-rex's 5.56 sealed can and decided to take that design and make it a 30 cal can. I have not submitted any form 1s yet. Just getting designs figured out for the time being.

Construction will be all Stainless 17-4, looking into getting H1150 bar stock. Ive never machined any stainless (I'm just a guy that likes to buy machinery :D), this will be a first but from research guys say the H1150 machines better, but is harder on tools. Probably going to have to get some new tooling for the job as well.

Design, Noticed I did not add wall thicknesses on this. Blast chamber and blast baffle are 0.1" wall. All other baffles are 0.065" wall.
Image

Blast Baffle is not clipped.
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All other baffles are clipped using what T-rex called the DHC from Rusty
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Will this work? To short to do much? Fusion shows it already weighs 19oz. Will be going on a 8.3" barrel shooting subs and supers. Also contemplating changing the design some to make a 9mm can as well. Have a feeling ill build a 9mm upper for the SBR lower as well. Let me know what you think!
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by daviscustom »

If you can find H900 I would go that route, at least for the baffles. Max hardness on 17-4 is only in the low 40's and if it were my can that is what I would pick. If there is an advantage to H1150 for welding maybe use it for your tube and caps.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by T-Rex »

Welcome Mattman. Great to see someone brave enough to copy my design :lol:

A couple things:
-Prints show all material thicknesses greater than I actually cut them. 17-4 is strong enough to go thinner. Especially, the farther from the muzzle you get. Don't be afraid to thin some baffles out. Also, you can see in the pics, for that particular build, I steeped the exterior profile of the suppressor. Further reducing wall thickness, material, and weight.
-For 30cal, I'd add 1.5-2" of length. Thinning the baffles out will help with this added weight.
-H1150 isn't hard to machine and I've never noticed any extra maintenance needed for the tooling.
-H900 and H1150 are very close, in the strength and hardness categories. At least close enough to choose either.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by ECCO Machine »

17-4 machines beautifully in any condition with carbide tooling. It's gonna be hard on HSS, though, just like any stainless that isn't a "free machining" grade. 17-4 is one of the few that will give a really nice surface finish in the annealed state without having to use abrasives.

Assuming you're a decent TIG welder, your walls are much thicker than they need to be, especially for 300 blk. 17-4 is strong stuff. For a tubeless design, I'd go .060" on the blast chamber, .040" on the rest. Might also consider a threaded junction of blast chamber and blast baffle in addition to the weld. That is how I make my Five By Five and Accipiter tubeless models.

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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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T-Rex wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:46 am Welcome Mattman. Great to see someone brave enough to copy my design :lol:

A couple things:
-Prints show all material thicknesses greater than I actually cut them. 17-4 is strong enough to go thinner. Especially, the farther from the muzzle you get. Don't be afraid to thin some baffles out. Also, you can see in the pics, for that particular build, I steeped the exterior profile of the suppressor. Further reducing wall thickness, material, and weight.
-For 30cal, I'd add 1.5-2" of length. Thinning the baffles out will help with this added weight.
-H1150 isn't hard to machine and I've never noticed any extra maintenance needed for the tooling.
-H900 and H1150 are very close, in the strength and hardness categories. At least close enough to choose either.
In not sure if that is a good or a bad thing :lol:, but the design seems simple enough and you stated it works well so I figured I would give it a try. My bad on the blast baffle I had the cone at 0.1" thick, the wall on the blast chamber and the blast baffle was 0.085, and the common baffles were all 0.065. I've looked into thinning them up but I am going to have to change some things because where the baffles interface each other it starts to get really thin when the baffles are thinned up. Id like to keep this around 7" or less, with the way I have it right now I can make it 7" long and have 8 baffles and can probably get it around 16oz with the walls thinned up.

With the H1150 I'm not saying that it takes much maintenance for the tooling, But I just bought this lathe a little over a year ago and I have not gotten a whole lot of tooling for it yet. I need a couple tools to be able to turn each baffle one at a time without having to flip it around because my chuck has about 0.018" of run out and I just haven't wanted to buy a new chuck yet. Honestly I just need another lathe, bought this one at an auction for a good price, but there is a bent shaft in the head stock and at least 3 gears that are missing a couple teeth (Did not notice this before I bought it), I looked into replacing them but the parts cost 4x more than what I paid for the lathe.

One thing I did want to ask you was what were the holes in the baffles for? Everything I saw reading around was for draining water. Was that just to get the gasses to keep flowing forward to keep the back pressure lower?
ECCO Machine wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:36 am 17-4 machines beautifully in any condition with carbide tooling. It's gonna be hard on HSS, though, just like any stainless that isn't a "free machining" grade. 17-4 is one of the few that will give a really nice surface finish in the annealed state without having to use abrasives.

Assuming you're a decent TIG welder, your walls are much thicker than they need to be, especially for 300 blk. 17-4 is strong stuff. For a tubeless design, I'd go .060" on the blast chamber, .040" on the rest. Might also consider a threaded junction of blast chamber and blast baffle in addition to the weld. That is how I make my Five By Five and Accipiter tubeless models.

Image
Yeah from everything I have seen 17-4 is a great material to work with. I need to pick up some carbide or possibly some cobolt drill bits and possibly end mills to make some features easier to make.

For welding I'm probably going to do like T-Rex did on his. I've got a chuck on my plasma table for tube cutting and just make some jig to hold the torch. I could do It by hand, but I think doing it this way would look a little nicer. What do you do the threaded junction for? Just a more secured fit up?
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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Mattman2010 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:13 pm What do you do the threaded junction for? Just a more secured fit up?
Yes. The blast chamber takes the brunt of uncorking, so it's an extra measure. Doesn't take much longer to do, worth it IMO. It also helps with alignment; things are gonna pull and move around when you start welding, even if you tack it every 120° or 90° first. It takes very well designed fixtures and a lot of refinement with process to eliminate that. They'll move a lot less if it's threaded together, though.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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ECCO Machine wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:58 pm
Mattman2010 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:13 pm What do you do the threaded junction for? Just a more secured fit up?
Yes. The blast chamber takes the brunt of uncorking, so it's an extra measure. Doesn't take much longer to do, worth it IMO. It also helps with alignment; things are gonna pull and move around when you start welding, even if you tack it every 120° or 90° first. It takes very well designed fixtures and a lot of refinement with process to eliminate that. They'll move a lot less if it's threaded together, though.
Makes sense. Ill have to look into that idea and probably go do some test cuts on the lathe. I am far from a machinist and I have never done any internal threading on a lathe.

I went through and made baffles a little thinner. Going to have to rework the stack up section on the baffles. On the 7 common baffles if I go to a .040 wall I only have .020 between the out side register and the inside cone. That may be fine but to me it seems thin (I tend to overbuild stuff).

This configuration is at 16.5 oz. If the .020 between the register and the inside cone on the baffles is fine should I go another 1/2" longer and add another baffle?
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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Mattman2010 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:46 pm I went through and made baffles a little thinner. Going to have to rework the stack up section on the baffles. On the 7 common baffles if I go to a .040 wall I only have .020 between the out side register and the inside cone. That may be fine but to me it seems thin (I tend to overbuild stuff).
That'll make for tricky welding.

Instead, try giving your baffles a little more shoulder before the cone starts. Make that shoulder .060" thick, then cut the register .030" into that shoulder for the full .040" deep cone walls. Much less risk of burning away your skirt while trying to get enough heat into the distal cone for fusion.

Nothing to scale, just a quick MS paint sketch as I don't CAD, but:

Image

This is an example of my actual baffles:

Image

Those are for a recore, not a tubeless design, so have thinner walls, but they serve the purpose of illustrating nonetheless.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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ECCO Machine wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:49 amtry giving your baffles a little more shoulder before the cone starts. Make that shoulder .060" thick, then cut the register .030" into that shoulder for the full .040" deep cone walls. Much less risk of burning away your skirt while trying to get enough heat into the distal cone for fusion.
Yup. This is almost exactly how my drawing shows

Image


You can thin your end cap out, a lot. I don't usually go thicker than .06, unless putting some features into that need meat.
Look at DeadAir's flash end cap design. It'd be need to throw that in.

Image
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by Mattman2010 »

ECCO Machine wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:49 am That'll make for tricky welding.

Instead, try giving your baffles a little more shoulder before the cone starts. Make that shoulder .060" thick, then cut the register .030" into that shoulder for the full .040" deep cone walls. Much less risk of burning away your skirt while trying to get enough heat into the distal cone for fusion.
Yeah I figured that would cause problems with welding. Went through and fixed all that, should work now.
T-Rex wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:27 am Yup. This is almost exactly how my drawing shows

You can thin your end cap out, a lot. I don't usually go thicker than .06, unless putting some features into that need meat.
Look at DeadAir's flash end cap design. It'd be need to throw that in.
Yeah I looked at you're drawing and saw the step. I apparently skipped a lot of things looking at the drawing :lol:

I went ahead and thinned up the cap and added a slight crown to it as well. I also added another baffle to the stack and its right under 15oz.
I think I am happy with this version if everything looks alright. Might need to start looking into how to efile a form 1.
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Should I drill ports in the baffles? I'm not sure to the pros of drilling the ports in the baffles are.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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Mattman2010 wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:49 pm Should I drill ports in the baffles? I'm not sure to the pros of drilling the ports in the baffles are.
I personally wouldn't. In my testing, they proved a feature that only complicated manufacturing, had little effect on performance one way or the other.

I think what you've got will work fairly well. I'm not sold on the "DHC" after experimenting with it, but that's me. I do an asymmetric radiused clip 1/2 of aperture diameter and slightly past cutter width deep for most of my centerfire rifle models, and a radiused symmetric closer to 1/3 bullet diameter on pistol & rimfire models. The former you see in my above photo, the latter is demonstrated below with one of my Ocelot baffles. Ocelot still hangs around 114 dB on rifles, but the change to a larger cone and this clip style dropped me considerably on handguns, and there's almost no FRP (2 dB)

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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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ECCO Machine wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:28 pm I personally wouldn't. In my testing, they proved a feature that only complicated manufacturing, had little effect on performance one way or the other.

I think what you've got will work fairly well. I'm not sold on the "DHC" after experimenting with it, but that's me. I do an asymmetric radiused clip 1/2 of aperture diameter and slightly past cutter width deep for most of my centerfire rifle models, and a radiused symmetric closer to 1/3 bullet diameter on pistol & rimfire models. The former you see in my above photo, the latter is demonstrated below with one of my Ocelot baffles. Ocelot still hangs around 114 dB on rifles, but the change to a larger cone and this clip style dropped me considerably on handguns, and there's almost no FRP (2 dB)
Is there any way that the ports would keep back pressure down? I am left eye dominant so when I was younger my dad had be shooting left handed even though I am right handed and reducing back pressure would be nice so I don't get a bunch of gas in the face.

I'm not set on the DHC 100%, The asymmetric is almost more appealing to me so I don't have to index the baffles as many times. Some things may still change, might even change during the construction of it. I'm pretty sure the two cans I have setting at the local gun store both have asymmetric baffles in them. I appreciate you're help in showing me what works for you!
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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ECCO is correct that the baffle porting adds Mfr time. Being a home maker, I'm not too concerned w/ it. In reality, it added about 4min/baffle, to the entire process. I can say, however, it showed a noticeable drop in back-pressure, when compared to similar suppressors, w/o that feature. Typical 5.56mm silencers have a larger blast chamber and blast cone to muzzle device distance.
I, also, can't put too much behind the DHC. This is the only can I've used it in. While I experienced almost no POI shift, I have other cans that perform similarly, and they have different clip styles. All my other cans have symmetrical, asymmetrical, or a mix of both.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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T-Rex wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:46 am ECCO is correct that the baffle porting adds Mfr time. Being a home maker, I'm not too concerned w/ it. In reality, it added about 4min/baffle, to the entire process. I can say, however, it showed a noticeable drop in back-pressure, when compared to similar suppressors, w/o that feature. Typical 5.56mm silencers have a larger blast chamber and blast cone to muzzle device distance.
I, also, can't put too much behind the DHC. This is the only can I've used it in. While I experienced almost no POI shift, I have other cans that perform similarly, and they have different clip styles. All my other cans have symmetrical, asymmetrical, or a mix of both.
If it drops back pressure then It would probably be worth it to me to do the porting. I have a feeling I will probably end up going with a symmetrical or asymmetrical clipping.

Would this design work for a 9mm as well? Wont need a booster as it would be for an AR only.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by fishman »

I have a feeling I will probably end up going with a symmetrical or asymmetrical clipping
those are literally the only two clip options.
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http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by Sergeant »

Regarding baffle porting,
I've been working on trying to reduce back pressure on gas guns for the last 6 months with little success.
Do you drill 4 ports in the blast baffle?
Or what have you found that works?
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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Sergeant wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:40 am Regarding baffle porting,
I've been working on trying to reduce back pressure on gas guns for the last 6 months with little success.
Do you drill 4 ports in the blast baffle?
Or what have you found that works?
The best way to reduce back pressure is an overbored can with fewer baffles. Most of the designs I have for 5.56 meant for ARs or other autoloaders could pass a .30 cal bullet. They're louder at the muzzle end than one meant for a bolt gun, but the idea is to meet in the middle, have similar dBs on both ends rather than max muzzle quiet with a vicious port pop. So instead of low-mid 130s muzzle and low-mid 140s at shooter's ear, I try for mid-high 130s muzzle and ear. Bottom line is that semi autos will be loud; most are over 140 at ear, period, and even the AR is gonna be around 137 at ear if it cycles, so that should be the goal, with no further steps to mitigate backpressure once you reach that level, lest you end up with an OSS can.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by Sergeant »

I see. No magic pill, no free lunch.
Thank you
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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Looking at filling out my form 1 next week for this can. Should I put the length down as 8" just to give me some play if I happen to come out a little longer? How exact do you need to be on length?

Edit:
Also on the 5320.23 responsible persons questionnaire. On 4b. Name and Address of Maker, Manufacturer and/or Importer of Firearm. would that be the trust name and address for the manufacturer? Do you have to have a model number for the form 1 can?
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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Mattman2010 wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:39 pm Looking at filling out my form 1 next week for this can. Should I put the length down as 8" just to give me some play if I happen to come out a little longer? How exact do you need to be on length?
As with many things ATF, there's really no clear answer here. And sometimes listed OALs include mounts or boosters, sometimes not.

Be as accurate as you can, but know that A) the likelihood of a field agent taking a ruler to your can is probably much less than being struck by lightning and B) as long as you're reasonably close, it shouldn't be an issue. Adding 2" is a big no-no, but if your F1 says 8" and your actual is 8.35", nobody's gonna care. People put down the tube length all the time, forgetting that caps may add 1/4"-1/2". I have yet to hear of anyone ever being prosecuted for inaccurate F1 suppressor length.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by K2 Designs »

I'm currently working on a very similar design. See below (1.7" OD, 6.25" long). I just recently found T-Rex's 5.56 thread and it's really given me some ideas, especially for welding. I've built a few fully custom Form 1s before, but this is my first fully welded design.

I've chose to port my baffles purely for water draining capability. I'm also trying to mimic a Q trash panda somewhat. I'm still debating on what clipping to use. I figure Q uses this clip style for a reason, but I've been intrigued by the DHC.

On the OP's design, I think you could really lighten up the design. I'm going as low as .035 wall on my baffle skirts near the exit. Blast chamber around .050 to .060 will be fine for 30cal. My model is saying it'll weigh under 15 ounces, with most of that weight in the blast chamber. 17-4 is much better than 300 series stainless (~75% stronger in annealed state) and a lot of older commercial cans were made with 300 series in similar thicknesses. I design with 17-4 regularly at work and it's really a great material across the board. It's my go to for my hobby projects requiring stainless too.

I do have a question for T-Rex that I think will also help the OP. How much did your 5.56 can move after welding? Did you have any noticeable distortion using your DIY positioner? Any lessons learned that you can share on the welding?

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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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K2 Designs wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:48 pm I do have a question for T-Rex that I think will also help the OP. How much did your 5.56 can move after welding? Did you have any noticeable distortion using your DIY positioner? Any lessons learned that you can share on the welding?
While I'm sure the parts had some final settling, it was nothing I could perceive. I made a tailor-fit center rod, for aligning and mounting the parts in the welder. It was a snug fit, upon assembly, and was removed w/o additional effort.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by K2 Designs »

T-Rex, this is good to hear. That is my exact plan. I figure I'll drill everything to 5/16" and then put a matching rod, threaded on the end, down. I'll pull the whole assembly tight with that and weld. Once complete, my plan is to finish the mount end and then flip it around and do a final bore with a reamer to ensure everything is straight and true.

I worry about the welding because I previously built a 45 can that I originally designed with a welded joint between the blast chamber and the main tube. It was all 304ss and warped badly. I had to trash the whole thing and remade the assembly with a threaded joint instead. I'm sure part of my problem was my inconsistent welding (I'm not a pro and didn't have any kind of positioner). There also wasn't any internal support (baffles) to take some of the stress to minimize the warp. It was a thicker tube being welded to a thinner tube essentially, with a small lap joint on the backside. The tube came out egg shaped. Something like .100" diameter difference high to low spot.

I'm currently in the process of designing a positioner similar to what you used. I assume you're happy with how it worked out? I'm planning to add a few more features/capability to allow use on some other things I make, but I really like the simplicity of the drive mechanism.

Thanks for the information!
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

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304 and 316 always want to warp. You need to either design around it or compensate with weld fixtures and setups. If need be, I'll attach large Al blocks near the weld, to absorb heat. I always do a couple test pieces to ensure I have the setting correct. The fixture works perfectly. It took a couple tweaks, but I've used it for several projects.
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Re: 300 Black Out Welded Can

Post by 3strucking »

I remember seeing some pictures of your welding positioner. I am wanting to build something similar. I have a rotisserie off of a grill that I thought about trying to use.
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