Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

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John A.
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Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

I've seen a ton of sketches in patent data, and also photos from a few museums in various parts of England mostly, but does anyone here have any prints with specific numbers and sizes on them?

I guess the biggest thing I am curious about is baffle spacing.

In knowing the barrels are 7.25", with approximately 5 inches sticking out in front of the receiver, and with 16 inches of tubing overall, if my math is correct and they are all evenly spaced, that would = ~.84" baffle spacing. However, that still seems a hair too long because that would butt up the expansion baffle all the way up to the muzzle and essentially have no expansion chamber.

So, I'm thinking closer to .500" baffle spacing?

Oh, there are 13 baffles, plus endcap for anyone wondering.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by T-Rex »

John, I forgot to tell you, in our other conversation, about a guy on Arfcom building a DeLisle. He posted maybe a month ago and asked the same question. Not shortly after, he had posted a pic of some prints he received. Can't remember if it was in the Silencer DIY or Gunsmithing section. If you don't find it, I'll do a search.

ETA: I easily found it in my history.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

Thank you for the reply.

I have copies of those already. Most of the info that I have gathered has been from England and Euro sources. Which doesn't surprise me.

Those drawings do help, but there are a lot of differences between it and the patent drawings and prototypes as well, so it looks like they had a lot of rolling changes during their brief production run.

At the arfcom link, the guy was measuring the barrel on the one print that was supposed to be to scale, but that's not a scale drawing.

The barrels were 7.25" long and porting at about 5 inches, with about 2 inches inside of the receiver. Looks like the drawing he is using, while it does show the internals better, has the barrel about a 9 something inches long which is incorrect.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by Capt. Link. »

There is some information in the Paulsen suppressor book volume #2 . My library is open to you provided the scanner works. Not sure if blueprints exist do to secrecy issues,but some wonderful drawings do. Variants exist in production.
I would not build a copy bolt by bolt as many problems exist in the original. Building a improved look alike would be bad ass.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

I have noted several differences in the varying originals that I have seen. With or without the conical internal muzzlebrake that is on the patent that said it was there to prevent a vaccum from pulling the gas out of the area behind the barrel forward when a shot is fired. Most later photos do not show that part whatsoever.

Also in ranging anywhere from the patent mentioning using animal or vegetable materials, felt or asbestos packing to deaden the sound in the area over the barrel.

https://i.imgur.com/SkOKBEP.jpg

The part that is listed as SOUND DIFFUSER, which is essentially an inner tube underneath of the suppressor body that fits snugly into the suppressor tube. Other than it creates a smaller ID behind the barrel (of how much I don't know), I see no particular purpose for the part to even exist really.

It is the gold'ish colored tubing that is slitted across the top that you can see in the photo below, which I expect the slit was done because there wasn't really enough clearance over the barrel and the part that covers the barrel to port the gas rearward after it exits the side of the barrel which they call the flash compensator. I fully recognize the purpose of the flash compensator. Just not the inner tube they call the sound diffuser. Unless it only existed to retain and hold the asbestos wrap or whatever they put in there while the suppressor body was off just to hold all of that in place while it's being serviced, but the ID of the suppressor tube itself would perform the same function on a 1 stamp gun.

Image

I personally had intended to fabricate a divider wall to better support the suppressor body, which would also be used to attach the handguard and rear sight base that screws onto the barrel threads which will in effect serve multiple purposes. I also plan to pin/weld it so it will be a 1 stamper for the suppressor. I will pull the guts out of the front cap. So, other than packing that area with a bunch of copper chore boy prior to permanently sealing it, I see no particular point of adding the part that they list as sound diffuser especially with the dividing wall that I am going to be making.

Capt. Link, do you care to expand on what problems were determined in the originals so I can try to avoid that? I won't be copying it bolt for bolt and thread pitch. Though I was wanting to build the suppressor pretty darn close to what the original was since it was supposed to be gold standard for 45acp suppression, I wasn't really wanting to try to make a more modern baffle system which would likely suck.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by Capt. Link. »

John A. wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:03 pm
Capt. Link, do you care to expand on what problems were determined in the originals so I can try to avoid that? I won't be copying it bolt for bolt and thread pitch. Though I was wanting to build the suppressor pretty darn close to what the original was since it was supposed to be gold standard for 45acp suppression, I wasn't really wanting to try to make a more modern baffle system which would likely suck.
The whole suppressor body and baffle stack was subject to misalignment causing horrible accuracy. A few things can be improved while keeping 99% of the original design while correcting these issue at the same time.
First the receiver/tube mounting point must be solid without flexture.
Next the barrel should be held in tension between the receiver and end of the barrel with a tube mounted solidly to the receiver.Port the barrel and have it exhaust into this separate chamber.No packing is needed but you can add sub chambers to divide it. Drop the deceleration plates and add a perforated blast baffle.Each baffle should be welded into a keyed spacer plus you might have room for a additional baffle.The suppression tube must be a extension of the receiver and baffles added and held in tension like modern suppressors.
These internal mods should improve accuracy 100% plus add to suppression by allowing a tighter bullet passage and dividing High pressure from Low.
Another minor problem is that you need to slap the bolt forward to load a round.This is mostly because the magazine was designed for a automatic.

PS: I've read several accounts on disassembly and measures taken to improve accuracy. I have never seen a account where any packing was used.I suggest this split tube "sound diffuser"was bare and designed to reduce ringing.
In attempt to improve accuracy a careful reassembly/realignment was performed.It was only a temporary fix as the tie rods were a dismal failure.

I can go into great detail on how these items must be made to eliminate any misalignment.Its no problem doing this as a one stamper that can be a mirror image of a original.
A great project sir!
-CL
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

OK, here was how I had planned to address some of those things already. Misalignment was the main reason behind all the thought I have put into it.

I plan to make a suppressor tube support which is basically the same shape as the front or rear endcap, only it will fit inside the ID of the tube. That part will be threaded directly to the barrel and will address a few things. And not to mention make everything more rigid and will keep tension as yo mentioned.

First, It will help support the whole front end better by joining the suppressor tube and the barrel like more modern suppressors.

Next, I was going to use that same part as the mounting location for the handguard screw. Since the handguard screw will physically go through a hole in the suppressor tube, that will ensure alignment with the suppressor tube itself and also be repeatable for the iron sights too since everything will index off of that same point upon removal and reinstallation.

And of course, that will also create a dividing wall between the integral chamber over the barrel and everything beyond the front of the muzzle up at the baffles and cap.

I had planned to do a single stamp all along, but instead of pin welding the suppressor tube to the suppressor support part that I had originally considered, I had a better thought of welding the long screws that holds the baffles and endcap in place to the suppressor support and the long bolts to the barrel. ATF says you can permanently attach basically anything to the barrel as long as it reaches the legal limit, that will kill both birds with one stone. It will add to barrel length making it more than 16 inches, and being welded in place to the barrel, should also keep alignment "idiot proof".

And the whole while, being able to remove the suppressor tube to access anything in the reflex/integral chamber occasionally for cleaning so to me, that is the best path forward for me with this project.

Do any of you feel that I should make a few ports between the two main chambers in the barrel support piece that I'm going to make once I perm. attach it to the barrel? I'm on the fence because in the 4 other integrals that I have done, I have only ported one to make somewhat of a hybrid reflex, but that can would appear to not be as effective as the other 3 that I have essentially divided the two chambers altogether which all 3 seem more quiet. And now that I won't be permanently attaching the tube to the barrel, I'm leaning toward keeping the divider/support wall solid. It's obviously going to be a bolt action so it's not like the gas ported out over the barrel is going to vapor lock the gun once it does ultimately fill up with pressurized gas and I'm not really seeing the need to combine the rear and front chambers together really.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by garredondojr »

well I spent 15min typing a elaborate post and it got wyped. don't feel like typing it again.

General gist was to do a 17-4 tubeless k-baffle stack welded together (like the dead air mask or aac hylocan baffle) do it small diameter that still fit into the tube this will give you your 1 stamp gun. then the waste ports will vent into the outer tube which could be separated either by offset washers using the tension rod method like designed or even something cool like a giant monolithic aluminum sleeve that separated each baffles waste port which could also be filled with packing/eyelets, ect....

But I will mention (again) that I have a 45 acp reamer your welcome to borrow.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

Thank you for the offer garredondojr.

I will be using a 45acp conversion barrel and mag adapter from Rhineland. The barrel headspaces much like the savage with a barrel nut so I doubt I should need a chamber reamer, but I'll send you a message if I do.

I would definitely take you up on a headspace gauge if you have one I could borrow. That will save me from having to buy or rent one from somewhere else. But it's OK if you don't. I think brownells has the go gauge for ~$30 if you don't.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by garredondojr »

John A. wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 2:57 pm Thank you for the offer garredondojr.

I will be using a 45acp conversion barrel and mag adapter from Rhineland. The barrel headspaces much like the savage with a barrel nut so I doubt I should need a chamber reamer, but I'll send you a message if I do.

I would definitely take you up on a headspace gauge if you have one I could borrow. That will save me from having to buy or rent one from somewhere else. But it's OK if you don't. I think brownells has the go gauge for ~$30 if you don't.
Don't have a 45 ACP HS gauge. I used a case that I trimmed to spec and filled with lead about 90% of the way. on 9mm I went a little fancier and cut my own from a piece of 4130 3/8 round I had.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

That would definitely work too. Thanks for giving me the idea. :D
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by T-Rex »

John, I've made gauges from Saami prints. Take your time and cur them a hair larger. Grind and polish to size.

As for blueprints and patents, the two aren't interchangeable. Just because a feature is shown in a specific way, in a patent, doesn't mean it was made like this or even included. They're just for IP concerns and in no way reflect actual fabrication results. Not that it makes it easier to get the info you want, but you'll know a scaled drawing should be more accurate then any patent images.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by garredondojr »

Just and FYI Rudy @ Macon armory told me +.003" Headspace is ideal for pistol calibers to allow for brass length indifferences...unless you plan on trimming your brass identically :mrgreen:
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

I don't do anything identically. It's 45acp. Not a long range sniper round. :lol:
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

Dazed and Confused on fal files used a go gauge and then used avery sticker paper on the back of a new piece of brass to use as a no go.
I took a new piece of .45 brass and added layers of white Avery adhesive labels to the base till I got exactly 0.920". The Avery labels don't compress like masking tape so the dimension is repeatable even after trying to close the bolt several times.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by garredondojr »

John A. wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 7:23 pm Dazed and Confused on fal files used a go gauge and then used avery sticker paper on the back of a new piece of brass to use as a no go.
I took a new piece of .45 brass and added layers of white Avery adhesive labels to the base till I got exactly 0.920". The Avery labels don't compress like masking tape so the dimension is repeatable even after trying to close the bolt several times.
I often use 3m brand scotch tape ""Magic Transparent Tape" on the base of a go gauge as a "no go" lol. it is .002" thick.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

Capt. Link. wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:45 pm
John A. wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:03 pm
Capt. Link, do you care to expand on what problems were determined in the originals so I can try to avoid that? I won't be copying it bolt for bolt and thread pitch. Though I was wanting to build the suppressor pretty darn close to what the original was since it was supposed to be gold standard for 45acp suppression, I wasn't really wanting to try to make a more modern baffle system which would likely suck.
The whole suppressor body and baffle stack was subject to misalignment causing horrible accuracy. A few things can be improved while keeping 99% of the original design while correcting these issue at the same time.
First the receiver/tube mounting point must be solid without flexture.
Next the barrel should be held in tension between the receiver and end of the barrel with a tube mounted solidly to the receiver.Port the barrel and have it exhaust into this separate chamber.No packing is needed but you can add sub chambers to divide it. Drop the deceleration plates and add a perforated blast baffle.Each baffle should be welded into a keyed spacer plus you might have room for a additional baffle.The suppression tube must be a extension of the receiver and baffles added and held in tension like modern suppressors.
These internal mods should improve accuracy 100% plus add to suppression by allowing a tighter bullet passage and dividing High pressure from Low.
Another minor problem is that you need to slap the bolt forward to load a round.This is mostly because the magazine was designed for a automatic.

I can go into great detail on how these items must be made to eliminate any misalignment.Its no problem doing this as a one stamper that can be a mirror image of a original.
A great project sir!
-CL
Capt. Link, Here is my basic plan. While not 100% authentic to the prints, this is how I was going to do mine.

There will obviously be a front and rear endcap. The rear endcap will be attached and tensioned between the barrel nut and the receiver. Likely on the 1"-14 barrel threading itself if possible Thus locking it in place and allowing me to be able to time it.

From there, the long bolts will thread into the rear cap and seat into them. next, I planned to make another piece that threads onto the shortened barrel that will go to the ID of the suppressor tube itself separating the rear chamber from the front that I am calling the suppressor support and also be another attachment point for the long bolts which will move on forward with the spacers and baffles and ultimately hold the front cap in place.

The suppressor support will also be the mounting point for the handguard screw. This will ensure that if it gets taken apart and reassembled that the tube will index off of that point where the handguard bolt will screw into it. The support will be pinned/welded to the barrel and make it a 1 stamper. This should better support the tube, and with the long rods going through it and from the rear endcap to the front endcap, I believe will tension everything together pretty well I believe and along the lines of similar to what you were referring to.
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by Capt. Link. »

John A. wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:03 pm
Image
John A I'm going to be critical so you get the best product.

If you look at the picture the rear end cap is part of the receiver. Its a solid base to build from .You may also note the barrel muzzle is not supported.

The eccentric rear cap should be mechanically fixed to the receiver for alignment and all timing should be based on this.The barrel muzzle should be threaded and ports added.
A sub diameter tube can be placed between the rear end cap and the barrel muzzle.A sub diameter plate with a eccentric hole is placed over the barrel and fitted to the tube using a nut.This nut holds the barrel in tension and the tube around it in compression. The plate can be used in conjunction with the rear end cap to support the tube.Now you have a very solid structure that can be used to hold the forend and tube.

Baffles: The eccentric baffles used on the original are not necessarily the best.I would consider the slant baffle as a alternative.You could build a eccentric coaxial using K baffle or cone as well.The coaxial advantage is no timing of baffles are needed to prevent strikes.

The tie rods were the main failings of the De Lisle !!!!!! use spacers with baffles welded into them or weld each baffle into the tube.You can place fake tie rods on the end cap if you wish the illusion.

Building a integral like I described is basically bullet proof and light weight. I'll help no matter what plan you use.

-CL
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

Thank you for the reply.

Here's how I intended to do the barrel and caps and stuff.

The rear endcap will be threaded 1"-14 and threaded onto the barrel at the receiver. The factory conversion barrel nut will tighten down to it. Thus acting basically as a jam nut or lock nut. I may also blind pin it in place if it doesn't lock down solid enough for my taste.

I am going to make an eccentric piece like you mentioned (if I'm following you correctly) that will thread onto the muzzle threads. It will be pinned/welded onto the barrel itself. That part will be about 3/8" thick with the exception of what I mill away to reduce weight and basically wide enough to accept the 1/4-20 screw that I was going to use that will bolt the handguard onto. The long bolts that will hold the baffles will also go through it and further better help tension the rear endcap to the front endcap and also all the baffles/spacers together. I am going to use two nuts on both the front and rear of that suppressor support and tighten them together (jam nut) and will weld the nuts together to prevent them from being removed easily and count towards the overall length. The handguard nut will also thread in from the bottom and through the suppressor tube to hold the front of the handguard in place. That is why I said it would act as an index point.

I do think that having the long bolt thread into the rear endcap and through the barrel support would make them much more solid and stable than how the original was done. Instead of basically a single point of contact to just the rear cap, I believe that the way I had considered doing it would be more solid.

I hadn't considered using traditional cut spacers. I just worry about them shifting around and becoming misaligned since the bore is offset from the center of the tube. I do like the idea of making the baffles slanted by using different length spacers though. That may be something I try. I have 3 different lengths created already and would be pretty simple and straight forward by just arranging the spacer lengths differently.

Image
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by Capt. Link. »

John A
I honestly think the way to get maximum suppression, simplicity of construction and no worries about baffle timing plus keeping it one stamp is building a eccentric coaxial suppressor.
Image

This is a basic coaxial suppressor.

If you reduce the sub diameter baffle tubes cross section and mount it eccentrically in the main tube you eliminate the necessity for timed eccentric baffles.
Construction can be as simple as building a rear end cap for main tube.Attach baffle tube to barrel muzzle.Put main tube over baffle tube with eccentric muzzle cap and muzzle nut thus putting the barrel under tension.

(no threads are needed) on the main tube or either cap. No sub chamber needed for ported barrel.Standard K baffles cone baffles or others can be used.The F&R caps are the only items that are timed and that's only for appearances.Only the baffle tube needs to be welded to the barrels muzzle,allowing the main tube removable for cleaning.

You can build the rear cap anyway you wish. I would mount it directly to the receiver as it far stronger than the barrel and can't be knocked out of timing once set. I'm not a big fan of jam nuts but understand the popularity. A nice stack of cone baffles combined with the ported barrel and large volume tube should be quiet.
-CL
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

Thank you for the detailed reply Capt. Link. I will take it into consideration. It would make it more simple to do a monocore internal. Though I don't really know if there is a monocore out there that does well with 45acp.

I guess I should try to do some research. I haven't really looked at 45acp monocores. Mostly because I have never been a big fan of them and can only think of one that impressed me (Liberty Leonidas/300blk).
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by alordnapa »

So this will be a two-stamp gun?
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Re: Anyone have copy of delisle blueprints/

Post by John A. »

No.

I had intended to pin/weld the suppressor support piece I was going to make to the end of the barrel. And also the long bolts that goes through the suppressor support was going to be welded to it in order to bring it to the minimum length.
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